Originally posted by Cow Poke
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostIt is true we don't know. But our hope changes nothing for that person.
And I guess it doesn't matter if we disrespect the dead. They don't know or care about what we think or do. It is simply, perhaps, ingrained in us by our culture.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostOne of my issues with it is that it seems flippant. It's something we say reflexively without thinking much of the meaning, as is evidenced with the comparison with "bless you" after sneezing. Death is a serious enough event and people matter enough that we shouldn't just resort to meaningless platitudes.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostApparently he had been attending a couple of evangelical churches in San Francisco and New York occasionally, so there is at least cause for hope.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostBut AFAICS the hope expressed comforts the grieving, regardless. In much the same way, a funeral does the same.
I'm going to answer my own question by saying that, by showing respect for the dead (and going through the ceremony of a funeral and burial), we comfort those who remain. I disagree with the assertion that they don't know or care about what we think or do, but this is probably not the place for that discussion.
However. When death becomes "the great equalizer", there is a problem with funeral or memorial services, imo, not facing the reality of the consequences of sin.
My brother committed suicide 21 years ago. He left a wife, and 2 young children. He would be 55 this year.
I thought I was in the wrong building at his funeral. He did not profess any conversion. The funeral was all about how he is in heaven and we will all see him again some day. The gospel was not presented. All the things that I knew about my brother and how he lived his life were swept under the carpet and he was made out to be this wonderful husband and father, and he was not.
I don't know where he is right now. I leave that in God's hands. But I would have been far more comforted at his funeral if the gospel had been presented and the reality of death without Christ made plain. Of course, that would have made the majority of the people there, his worldly friends and family, very uncomfortable. So, I will be frowned upon by those who think we shouldn't make anybody uncomfortable with the truth of the gospel.
As for your other point, yes, we will disagree, you and I, but I love you anyway.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostApparently he had been attending a couple of evangelical churches in San Francisco and New York occasionally, so there is at least cause for hope.Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
1 Corinthians 16:13
"...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
-Ben Witherington III
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostYes, there is that aspect to a funeral or memorial service.
However. When death becomes "the great equalizer", there is a problem with funeral or memorial services, imo, not facing the reality of the consequences of sin.
My brother committed suicide 21 years ago. He left a wife, and 2 young children. He would be 55 this year.
I thought I was in the wrong building at his funeral. He did not profess any conversion. The funeral was all about how he is in heaven and we will all see him again some day. The gospel was not presented. All the things that I knew about my brother and how he lived his life were swept under the carpet and he was made out to be this wonderful husband and father, and he was not.
I don't know where he is right now. I leave that in God's hands. But I would have been far more comforted at his funeral if the gospel had been presented and the reality of death without Christ made plain. Of course, that would have made the majority of the people there, his worldly friends and family, very uncomfortable. So, I will be frowned upon by those who think we shouldn't make anybody uncomfortable with the truth of the gospel.
As for your other point, yes, we will disagree, you and I, but I love you anyway.
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
1 Corinthians 16:13
"...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
-Ben Witherington III
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Originally posted by Raphael View PostA friend of mine's father died of cancer a number of years back (circa 2000). He was a vocal atheist. I wanted to smack the Methodist minister performing the funeral service who said: "Although Colin wasn't a believer, we know he is now safely in heaven with our Lord, where he is no longer suffering or in pain."
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostYes, there is that aspect to a funeral or memorial service.
However. When death becomes "the great equalizer", there is a problem with funeral or memorial services, imo, not facing the reality of the consequences of sin.
My brother committed suicide 21 years ago. He left a wife, and 2 young children. He would be 55 this year.
I thought I was in the wrong building at his funeral. He did not profess any conversion. The funeral was all about how he is in heaven and we will all see him again some day. The gospel was not presented. All the things that I knew about my brother and how he lived his life were swept under the carpet and he was made out to be this wonderful husband and father, and he was not.
I don't know where he is right now. I leave that in God's hands. But I would have been far more comforted at his funeral if the gospel had been presented and the reality of death without Christ made plain. Of course, that would have made the majority of the people there, his worldly friends and family, very uncomfortable. So, I will be frowned upon by those who think we shouldn't make anybody uncomfortable with the truth of the gospel.
As for your other point, yes, we will disagree, you and I, but I love you anyway.
I love the old expression "live your life in such a way that the Pastor can be totally honest at your funeral".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostHowever. When death becomes "the great equalizer", there is a problem with funeral or memorial services, imo, not facing the reality of the consequences of sin.
My brother committed suicide 21 years ago. He left a wife, and 2 young children. He would be 55 this year.
I thought I was in the wrong building at his funeral. He did not profess any conversion. The funeral was all about how he is in heaven and we will all see him again some day. The gospel was not presented. All the things that I knew about my brother and how he lived his life were swept under the carpet and he was made out to be this wonderful husband and father, and he was not.
I don't know where he is right now. I leave that in God's hands. But I would have been far more comforted at his funeral if the gospel had been presented and the reality of death without Christ made plain. Of course, that would have made the majority of the people there, his worldly friends and family, very uncomfortable. So, I will be frowned upon by those who think we shouldn't make anybody uncomfortable with the truth of the gospel.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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I was one of three pastors at my grandmother's funeral. I had ten minutes to speak and then I was to wrap it up by being a Master of Ceremonies and letting people speak about my grandmother that were in the audience.
I remember before I spoke her pastor got up and for his ten minutes said "Right now she is experiencing the resurrection!"
I was thinking "Sorry Pastor, but it looks like her body is right there."
What did I do? I thought there could always be non-Christians in the audience, so the first thing I did was spend five minutes or so doing a minimal facts presentation on the resurrection to let people know this happened. Then, I spent the last five minutes talking about my grandmother and what difference the resurrection makes.
I can say on a good side as well that the audience definitely liked it. A cousin of mine is a pastor and was one of the people who preached and as soon as he heard me, he was telling my Dad he wanted me to come speak at his church sometime, which I did.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostAbsolutely agree. It can't be easy for a pastor to preside over the funeral of a non-believer, but that doesn't excuse false platitudes. I wouldn't endorse a fire-n-brimstone sermon at the time either, but yeah - a funeral is a good time to drive home the seriousness of death without Christ.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Does it make sense now, seer?
Originally posted by square_peg View PostPhrasing it as "the final refusal to see the worth in anything" and "the willingness to saddle your family with pain and misery" is disturbing and inaccurate. Depression-influenced suicide didn't involve refusal, but an inability to see worth and beauty and a reason to continue. Walsh makes it sound like Robin Williams woke up one day and thought "Let's see, what shall I do today? Go on living, or saddle my family with pain and misery for the rest of their lives? Hmm...I dunno, I think I'm feeling option #2 today. Think I'll go with that." In reality, some depressed individuals feel that they're a burden or nuisance on their family, and are led to believe that suicide is the way to remove that and make things easier on their loved ones. When Walsh speaks of it being a choice, he seems to be saying that suicide, unlike afflictions such as cancer or natural disasters, is something within one's control, but that's where he misrepresents the nature of depression. It warps and distorts one's thinking so that ultimately the depression, not the individual, is in control.
Here's what David Foster Wallace* (another brilliant man who tragically took his own life in the throes of depression) said about the illness:
So you could say that suicide is a "choice" in the sense that a conscious decision was made to fashion the noose, but it isn't a choice between two or more options, because the nature of depression is such that the individual becomes convinced that suicide is the only option. And more significantly, it wasn't Robin Williams who made the choice, but the depression that hijacked his mind.
*Who, come to think of it, was once said to be to literature what Robin Williams was to comedyLearn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17
I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer
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