Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
It appears you are lost for words!
That hardly supports your claims about the history of first century Roman Empire and Judaea, which, with regard to a number of significant points, bears little in common with events in this universe.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
That hardly supports your claims about the history of first century Roman Empire and Judaea, which, with regard to a number of significant points, bears little in common with events in this universe.
a number of significant points, bears little in common with events in this universe.
And point out my errors.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou are free to cite where what I have written concerning the history of this region and of this period concerning:
a number of significant points, bears little in common with events in this universe.
And point out my errors.Datum: Municipia were established for lustra associated census purposes in provinces outside Italy.
Your claim: Only Roman citizens were counted in a lustrum associated census.Datum: Augustus was able to pen with his own hand the disposition of assets in client kingdoms.
Your claim: Egypt was a special case, having no equivalents elsewhere.Datum: The only provision ever mentioned for Egypt that varies from the standard pattern is the interval: 7 years as opposed to 14 (or 19 – depending on how the interval is counted).
Your claim: Client Kingdoms were exempt.Datum: A manuscript is extant which shows that Rome conducted a census in and by a client kingdom, under the supervision of a Roman censor.
Your claim: The Romans did not conduct an empire wide census in that periodDatum: Augustus conducted three lustra during his reign.
Further to which: "But it is also certain that under Augustus censuses were held in Judea by Sentius Saturninus: in these censuses one could verify his humanity" (Justin Martyr. Against Marcion, 4.19.10)
Whether or not those records actually referred to the family of Jesus, Judaea was included in the lustrum related census of 8BC – every claim of yours, listed above, is demonstrated false by this one data point.
Your claim: Rome never required people to return to their home-towns for the census.Datum: The requirement is found on a manuscript unearthed in Egypt, along with the census data for people who were not Roman citizens.
Your claim: The census results were not public records.Datum: Census results were posted on the wall of temples in the relevant municipia. The collated forms were archived in the temple of Saturn in Rome.
Last edited by tabibito; 04-02-2023, 05:23 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Your claim: A census (as required for the lustrum) was conducted only in Italy.Datum: Municipia were established for lustra associated census purposes in provinces outside Italy.
Your claim: Only Roman citizens were counted in a lustrum associated census.Datum: Augustus was able to pen with his own hand the disposition of assets in client kingdoms.
Your claim: Egypt was a special case, having no equivalents elsewhere.Datum: The only provision ever mentioned for Egypt that varies from the standard pattern is the interval: 7 years as opposed to 14 (or 19 – depending on how the interval is counted).
Your claim: Client Kingdoms were exempt.Datum: A manuscript is extant which shows that Rome conducted a census in and by a client kingdom, under the supervision of a Roman censor.
Your claim: The Romans did not conduct an empire wide census in that periodDatum: Augustus conducted three lustra during his reign.
Further to which: "But it is also certain that under Augustus censuses were held in Judea by Sentius Saturninus: in these censuses one could verify his humanity" (Justin Martyr. Against Marcion, 4.19.10)
Whether or not those records actually referred to the family of Jesus, Judaea was included in the lustrum related census of 8BC – every claim of yours, listed above, is demonstrated false by this one data point.
Your claim: Rome never required people to return to their home-towns for the census.Datum: The requirement is found on a manuscript unearthed in Egypt, along with the census data for people who were not Roman citizens.
Your claim: The census results were not public records.Datum: Census results were posted on the wall of temples in the relevant municipia. The collated forms were archived in the temple of Saturn in Rome.
This is nothing but a farrago of complete nonsense. I would seriously advise you to Get Thee to a Good Reference Library and consult some authoritative works.The History of the Jewish People. Revised Ed: by Millar, Black & Vermes, 1979
The relevant articles in the current edition of the Oxford Classical Dictionary. 4th Revised Edition, 2012
Beard, North, and Price Religions of Rome [2 Vols] 1998
Adrian Goldsworthy, Augustus: From Revolutionary to Emperor, 2014
John Richardson, Roman Provincial Administration 227 BC - AD 117. 1976
You should also bear in mind that there is an immense corpus of academic literature covering these subject areas. The suggested titles are purely offered as pointers for you as you make your way towards the citadel of erudition.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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[QUOTE=Hypatia_Alexandria;n1470338]
This is nothing but a farrago of complete nonsense. I would seriously advise you to Get Thee to a Good Reference Library and consult some authoritative works.[quote]
Once more, no attempt to engage with the issues raised.
The History of the Jewish People. Revised Ed: by Millar, Black & Vermes, 1979
The relevant articles in the current edition of the Oxford Classical Dictionary. 4th Revised Edition, 2012
Beard, North, and Price Religions of Rome [2 Vols] 1998
Adrian Goldsworthy, Augustus: From Revolutionary to Emperor, 2014
John Richardson, Roman Provincial Administration 227 BC - AD 117. 1976
You should also bear in mind that there is an immense corpus of academic literature covering these subject areas. The suggested titles are purely offered as pointers for you as you make your way towards the citadel of erudition.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostOnce more, no attempt to engage with the issues raised.
I am not engaging in detail on this because it is patently obvious that [a] you know nothing about Roman religion, Roman politics, and Roman provincial government in the early first century CE and [b] you do not read what I write to you, as indicated by your reply to the last longer post I made to you on Saturday.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Having skimmed through Richardson's book, which is interesting in its own right, I can't find anything relevant to the specific issues that I mentioned. Is the rest of your suggested reading list equally pertinent?
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou have written a farrago of nonsense.
I am not engaging in detail on this because it is patently obvious that [a] you know nothing about Roman religion, Roman politics, and Roman provincial government in the early first century CE and [b] you do not read what I write to you, as indicated by your reply to the last longer post I made to you on Saturday.
That you can make such an uninformed comment on the relevance of Richardson to the issues you have raised merely serves to exemplify the arrogance of your ignorance.
Back to reading Richardson's book for me.Last edited by tabibito; 04-02-2023, 08:08 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
That is one mighty uppity response, the more-so because it comes from an "anonymous poster on an insignificant bulletin board."
Back to reading Richardson's book for me.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Given how little you actually know you might find this a better starting point. It is written by a recognised academic.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Α book about Rome - I'm sure it will be chock full of information about what was happening in Judaea between 100 BCE and 100 CE.
And by the early part of the first century BCE it was invading the region. Does the name Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus [aka Pompey the Great] mean anything to you?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The Roman Republic was involved in the Greek East from the second century BCE - read upon Antiochus III and the Syrian or Antiochene War.
And by the early part of the first century BCE it was invading the region. Does the name Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus [aka Pompey the Great] mean anything to you?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostBy that logic a book on the Parthian Empire is needed given that they controlled parts of Syria and the Levant after the Second Roman Civil War for a few years
BROOK W. R. PEARSON. "The Lucan Censuses, Revisited." The Catholic Biblical Quarterly , April 1999, Vol. 61, No. 2 (April 1999), pp. 262-282
A couple of articles that I found today. The second is quite interesting.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostBy that logic a book on the Parthian Empire is needed given that they controlled parts of Syria and the Levant after the Second Roman Civil War for a few years
As I noted to tabibito there is a massive corpus of academic literature covering these subject areas. And these are huge subject areas.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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