We Have Two Swords

[Diogenes]

You made a assumption premised on a complete lack of evidence. Only a fool does that. Keep digging.

Which premise do you reject?

[tabibito]

It appears you are lost for words!

Not at all. Forster makes a reasonable case, contra majority consensus, in his discussion paper. Comparing his argument with scripture leads to an interesting possibility about the actual intent of Jesus' words.

That hardly supports your claims about the history of first century Roman Empire and Judaea, which, with regard to a number of significant points, bears little in common with events in this universe.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That hardly supports your claims about the history of first century Roman Empire and Judaea, which, with regard to a number of significant points, bears little in common with events in this universe.

You are free to cite where what I have written concerning the history of this region and of this period concerning:

a number of significant points, bears little in common with events in this universe.

And point out my errors.

[tabibito]

You are free to cite where what I have written concerning the history of this region and of this period concerning:

a number of significant points, bears little in common with events in this universe.

And point out my errors.

Your claim: A census (as required for the lustrum) was conducted only in Italy.

Datum: Municipia were established for lustra associated census purposes in provinces outside Italy.

Your claim: Only Roman citizens were counted in a lustrum associated census.

Datum: Augustus was able to pen with his own hand the disposition of assets in client kingdoms.

Your claim: Egypt was a special case, having no equivalents elsewhere.

Datum: The only provision ever mentioned for Egypt that varies from the standard pattern is the interval: 7 years as opposed to 14 (or 19 – depending on how the interval is counted).

Your claim: Client Kingdoms were exempt.

Datum: A manuscript is extant which shows that Rome conducted a census in and by a client kingdom, under the supervision of a Roman censor.

Your claim: The Romans did not conduct an empire wide census in that period

Datum: Augustus conducted three lustra during his reign.

Further to which: "But it is also certain that under Augustus censuses were held in Judea by Sentius Saturninus: in these censuses one could verify his humanity" (Justin Martyr. Against Marcion, 4.19.10)
Whether or not those records actually referred to the family of Jesus, Judaea was included in the lustrum related census of 8BC – every claim of yours, listed above, is demonstrated false by this one data point.

Your claim: Rome never required people to return to their home-towns for the census.

Datum: The requirement is found on a manuscript unearthed in Egypt, along with the census data for people who were not Roman citizens.

Your claim: The census results were not public records.

Datum: Census results were posted on the wall of temples in the relevant municipia. The collated forms were archived in the temple of Saturn in Rome.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Your claim: A census (as required for the lustrum) was conducted only in Italy.

Datum: Municipia were established for lustra associated census purposes in provinces outside Italy.

Your claim: Only Roman citizens were counted in a lustrum associated census.

Datum: Augustus was able to pen with his own hand the disposition of assets in client kingdoms.

Your claim: Egypt was a special case, having no equivalents elsewhere.

Datum: The only provision ever mentioned for Egypt that varies from the standard pattern is the interval: 7 years as opposed to 14 (or 19 – depending on how the interval is counted).

Your claim: Client Kingdoms were exempt.

Datum: A manuscript is extant which shows that Rome conducted a census in and by a client kingdom, under the supervision of a Roman censor.

Your claim: The Romans did not conduct an empire wide census in that period

Datum: Augustus conducted three lustra during his reign.

Further to which: "But it is also certain that under Augustus censuses were held in Judea by Sentius Saturninus: in these censuses one could verify his humanity" (Justin Martyr. Against Marcion, 4.19.10)
Whether or not those records actually referred to the family of Jesus, Judaea was included in the lustrum related census of 8BC – every claim of yours, listed above, is demonstrated false by this one data point.

Your claim: Rome never required people to return to their home-towns for the census.

Datum: The requirement is found on a manuscript unearthed in Egypt, along with the census data for people who were not Roman citizens.

Your claim: The census results were not public records.

Datum: Census results were posted on the wall of temples in the relevant municipia. The collated forms were archived in the temple of Saturn in Rome.

This is nothing but a farrago of complete nonsense. I would seriously advise you to Get Thee to a Good Reference Library and consult some authoritative works.

You might begin with:

Vol 1 Schürer The History of the Jewish People. Revised Ed: by Millar, Black & Vermes, 1979
The relevant articles in the current edition of the Oxford Classical Dictionary. 4th Revised Edition, 2012
Beard, North, and Price Religions of Rome [2 Vols] 1998
Adrian Goldsworthy, Augustus: From Revolutionary to Emperor, 2014
John Richardson, Roman Provincial Administration 227 BC - AD 117. 1976

You should also bear in mind that there is an immense corpus of academic literature covering these subject areas. The suggested titles are purely offered as pointers for you as you make your way towards the citadel of erudition.

[tabibito]

[QUOTE=Hypatia_Alexandria;n1470338]


This is nothing but a farrago of complete nonsense. I would seriously advise you to Get Thee to a Good Reference Library and consult some authoritative works.[quote]

Once more, no attempt to engage with the issues raised.

You might begin with:

Vol 1 Schürer The History of the Jewish People. Revised Ed: by Millar, Black & Vermes, 1979
The relevant articles in the current edition of the Oxford Classical Dictionary. 4th Revised Edition, 2012
Beard, North, and Price Religions of Rome [2 Vols] 1998
Adrian Goldsworthy, Augustus: From Revolutionary to Emperor, 2014
John Richardson, Roman Provincial Administration 227 BC - AD 117. 1976

You should also bear in mind that there is an immense corpus of academic literature covering these subject areas. The suggested titles are purely offered as pointers for you as you make your way towards the citadel of erudition.

Having skimmed through Richardson's book, which is interesting in its own right, I can't find anything relevant to the specific issues that I mentioned. Is the rest of your suggested reading list equally pertinent?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Once more, no attempt to engage with the issues raised.

You have written a farrago of nonsense.

I am not engaging in detail on this because it is patently obvious that [a] you know nothing about Roman religion, Roman politics, and Roman provincial government in the early first century CE and [b] you do not read what I write to you, as indicated by your reply to the last longer post I made to you on Saturday.

Having skimmed through Richardson's book, which is interesting in its own right, I can't find anything relevant to the specific issues that I mentioned. Is the rest of your suggested reading list equally pertinent?

That you can make such an uninformed comment on the relevance of Richardson to the issues you have raised merely serves to exemplify the arrogance of your ignorance.

[tabibito]

You have written a farrago of nonsense.

I am not engaging in detail on this because it is patently obvious that [a] you know nothing about Roman religion, Roman politics, and Roman provincial government in the early first century CE and [b] you do not read what I write to you, as indicated by your reply to the last longer post I made to you on Saturday.

That you can make such an uninformed comment on the relevance of Richardson to the issues you have raised merely serves to exemplify the arrogance of your ignorance.

That is one mighty uppity response, the more-so because it comes from an "anonymous poster on an insignificant bulletin board."

Back to reading Richardson's book for me.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That is one mighty uppity response, the more-so because it comes from an "anonymous poster on an insignificant bulletin board."

Back to reading Richardson's book for me.

Given how little you actually know you might find this a better starting point. It is written by a recognised academic.

[tabibito]

Given how little you actually know you might find this a better starting point. It is written by a recognised academic.

Α book about Rome - I'm sure it will be chock full of information about what was happening in Judaea between 100 BCE and 100 CE.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Α book about Rome - I'm sure it will be chock full of information about what was happening in Judaea between 100 BCE and 100 CE.

The Roman Republic was involved in the Greek East from the second century BCE - read upon Antiochus III and the Syrian or Antiochene War.

And by the early part of the first century BCE it was invading the region. Does the name Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus [aka Pompey the Great] mean anything to you?

[rogue06]

The Roman Republic was involved in the Greek East from the second century BCE - read upon Antiochus III and the Syrian or Antiochene War.

And by the early part of the first century BCE it was invading the region. Does the name Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus [aka Pompey the Great] mean anything to you?

By that logic a book on the Parthian Empire is needed given that they controlled parts of Syria and the Levant after the Second Roman Civil War for a few years

[tabibito]

By that logic a book on the Parthian Empire is needed given that they controlled parts of Syria and the Levant after the Second Roman Civil War for a few years

T. P. Wiseman. "THE CENSUS IN THE FIRST CENTURY B.C." The Journal of Roman Studies , 1969, Vol. 59, No. 1/2 (1969), pp. 59-75

BROOK W. R. PEARSON. "The Lucan Censuses, Revisited." The Catholic Biblical Quarterly , April 1999, Vol. 61, No. 2 (April 1999), pp. 262-282

A couple of articles that I found today. The second is quite interesting.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

By that logic a book on the Parthian Empire is needed given that they controlled parts of Syria and the Levant after the Second Roman Civil War for a few years

A volume or two on the history of the Parthian Empire would certainly add to one's understanding of these periods of history.

As I noted to tabibito there is a massive corpus of academic literature covering these subject areas. And these are huge subject areas.