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  • We Have Two Swords

    Is this a call to arms?

    -----------------

    What is meant by this passage in Luke? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    I was talking with someone yesterday who was curious what I thought of the passage in Luke 22:36-38. I figured I wouldn't have time for a sit-down conversation so I would write a blog on it. If you don't know, this is the passage.
    36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

    38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

    “That’s enough!” he replied.

    Often times, this passage is brought up in the context of answering questions about pacifism or self-defense. The problem is this is a really difficult passage to understand for many what is going on. Usually if you want to argue for a position, you start with passages that are more clear.

    So at the start, I do not hold to a pacifist interpretation. I think Jesus is more often talking about private situations and these are situations involving personal insults. He's not talking about how a government should be run.

    I also contend that if you see someone in danger and you are capable of doing something, if that means physical confrontation, then you do that. If you can't, you at least alert those who can, such as by calling the police. (And really since I don't want to encourage us all becoming vigilantes, generally if you have time always try to call the police first.)

    So what is going on in this passage?

    Jesus is getting ready to go to the cross and He knows from this point on that it's going to be much harder for His apostles, and indeed it is. Persecution will be coming. Thus, he tells them to sell their cloak and buy a sword.

    The sword here is not exactly first-rate military gear. It's said to be a small sword as distinguished by a large sword. It could be used for cutting animals and a number of Jews typically carried one around. Hence, it is not surprising to hear that in the Gospels, the apostles do have at least two of them.

    Despite that, it is not likely that Jesus meant this to be taken in a literal sense. After all, if they were trying to defend themselves, two swords are not going to be enough to defend twelve people. Jesus's exasperation then would be because His disciples were again misunderstanding Him. Jesus has a recurring theme when He is taken literalistically when He doesn't mean to be.

    So in the end, what this is saying is simply Jesus knows hard times are coming and some changes are going to take place. Like the advice given to a scout troop, they need to be prepared.

    We still need that advice today.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters
    (And I affirm the virgin birth)
    What is meant by this passage in Luke? Let’s plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out. I was talking with someone yesterday who was curious what I thought of the passage in Luke 22:36-38. I figured I wouldn’t have time for a sit-down conversation so I would write a blog on it. If you … Continue reading We Have Two Swords

  • #2
    Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    Is this a call to arms?

    -----------------

    What is meant by this passage in Luke? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    I was talking with someone yesterday who was curious what I thought of the passage in Luke 22:36-38. I figured I wouldn't have time for a sit-down conversation so I would write a blog on it. If you don't know, this is the passage.
    36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

    38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”

    “That’s enough!” he replied.

    Often times, this passage is brought up in the context of answering questions about pacifism or self-defense. The problem is this is a really difficult passage to understand for many what is going on. Usually if you want to argue for a position, you start with passages that are more clear.

    So at the start, I do not hold to a pacifist interpretation. I think Jesus is more often talking about private situations and these are situations involving personal insults. He's not talking about how a government should be run.
    Well that is one interpretation. However, within the known religio-political context of the time, other [perhaps more plausible] interpretations might be proffered.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Well that is one interpretation. However, within the known religio-political context of the time, other [perhaps more plausible] interpretations might be proffered.
      About which you believe that you know what? "If someone smites you on the cheek, turn to him the other" is the required response (if we are to take into account the mores and customs of the time and place) to a significant insult, not to an attack.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        About which you believe that you know what? "If someone smites you on the cheek, turn to him the other" is the required response (if we are to take into account the mores and customs of the time and place) to a significant insult, not to an attack.
        The short answer is we do not know what the intentions of thereal man behind the figures whom we now know as Jesus of Nazareth might have been.

        However, we can surmise given the known historical situation at the time.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          About which you believe that you know what? "If someone smites you on the cheek, turn to him the other" is the required response (if we are to take into account the mores and customs of the time and place) to a significant insult, not to an attack.
          Christianity was highly subversive to the mores and customs of the time and place.
          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            The short answer is we do not know what the intentions of thereal man behind the figures whom we now know as Jesus of Nazareth might have been.
            The people who were present, whose memoirs were recounted in writing, seem to have had a reasonable idea.

            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              The people who were present, whose memoirs were recounted in writing, seem to have had a reasonable idea.
              Well that is your opinion.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Christianity was highly subversive to the mores and customs of the time and place.
                However, only for the residents of one of Augustine's "two cities."
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #9
                  Jesus' thought was a revolutionary take on Judaism, and nearly entirely foreign to Greek/Roman thought (Stoicism approaches some elements of it). Tom Holland, though not a theist, shows how transformative Christianity was.
                  Last edited by One Bad Pig; 02-24-2023, 01:57 PM.
                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Jesus' thought was a revolutionary take on Judaism, and nearly entirely foreign to Greek/Roman thought (Stoicism approaches some elements of it). Tom Holland, though not a theist, shows how transformative Christianity was.
                    It presents some food for thought.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Well that is your opinion.
                      Why yes ...
                      Yes it is.



                      How so very astute of you to notice.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 02-24-2023, 04:41 PM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Christianity was highly subversive to the mores and customs of the time and place.
                        Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew, not a Christian.

                        And at what specific "time and place" was Christianity "highly subversive to the mores and customs"?
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew, not a Christian.
                          In a way that's no different than saying that Muhammad was a pagan not a Muslim.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            In a way that's no different than saying that Muhammad was a pagan not a Muslim.
                            H_A imagines that Christianity has far more to do with Paul than Jesus.
                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              In a way that's no different than saying that Muhammad was a pagan not a Muslim.
                              Jesus of Nazareth was not a Christian. He never knew anything about Christianity as it now exists. I daresay he would be horrified if he knew that 1900 years later he would be revered as a deity or part of a triune deity.

                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              H_A imagines that Christianity has far more to do with Paul than Jesus.
                              I doubt very much that a Galilean Jewish charismatic considered that "All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being". Or that he thought he was the "Lord of Glory". The belief that salvation was through the resurrected Christ came from Paul.

                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment

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