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Notice The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.
Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.
We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.
General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.
We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.
General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
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Apologetics And Personal Testimony
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Meanwhile, I had yet another opportunity just moments ago to lead a young man to faith in Christ!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Punkish View PostHow is it that JP's site is useful to Christians but for some reason they haven't spotted yet this amazing thing that the Holy Spirit isn't involved in his life?
really, these types of strawman comments have no place in a civil discussion.
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Originally posted by jpholding View PostThe Mormons would say the same to you. How do you answer the missionaries that come to your door?
I was home about 1 PM in my home office, and the doorbell rang. I have a sign on my front door that says...
no solicitors.jpg
I opened the door, and it was obviously JWs, but they had something NEW!!!!! They had their presentation on an iPad!
Anyway, I opened the door, pointed to the sign, and asked "Are you here to hear about Jesus?"
The man held up the iPad and said, "we want to tell you about Jesus"....
I interrupted and said, "So, your religion encourages trickery and deceit?"
The guy looked surprised, and I explained, "if you're not here to hear about Jesus, then you're here on false pretenses".
Normally, I would have engaged them further, but I had Jake trying to get out the door, and my grandkids in the living room, and just didn't have time for that. I just closed the door and left them on the front porch.
AFTER the fact, I thought "I should have just grabbed the iPad, and said 'thanks, I'll read this later'" and closed the door.
anyway
back to the thread!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by jpholding View PostI could as easily say that the objection sounds like it comes from someone who hasn't answered or deeply considered the epistemological question I'm posing.
Tells "us"? I congratulate you, I had no idea you had graduated into the elite membership of the apostles.
Then why do pastors make so many exegetical and factual errors? Is Joyce Meyer correct? Or should she have made her husband tuna salad?
Again, I congratulate you on your promotion! Give Peter my regards.
I ask again, then, why pastors make so many errors, etc. Either these aren't the literal and ironclad declarations they are being made out to be; or else we're all exceptionally bad listeners.
I agree to an extent. It sounds an awful lot like the test in Deuteronomy, but without the stones. That said, Mormons confess Jesus as Christ. That means....?
Nope. I just want people to be more discerning. To wit:
It might benefit you to know more. Look up Dan Barker's experience in a cornfield.
Do you think both Bevere and his senior pastor heard from the same Spirit? Or was one or both of them imagining it?
Hyperbolic? Okay, where is that explained? May I have some references from charismatic texts? John Bevere certainly doesn't seem to work that way...Dan Barker never used that line of reasoning or referred ot it...and of course Charles Stanley's no charismatic. At least not last I checked. He's certainly pretty dull as a speaker.
Is Luke 12:8-10 also only for the Apostles? Here's the whole passage in context,
It doesn't seem this is only directed toward the Twelve. Darrell Bock gives us an indication who Luke 12:11b-12 is applicable to in his commentary,
Notice Bock is referring to Jesus' people, and his disciples, not the twelve specifically, but all of Jesus' followers. Likewise, Witherington in his commentary on John tells us,
Witherington doesn't claim that John 14:26 only refers to the Twelve, but to the believer.
Acknowledging that the Holy Spirit can help us in what to say, or bring things to our remembrance is not acknowledging that everything that we say or do is perfect, or without interference from our human nature/our own minds. Again, we discern the difference by seeing if it aligns with scripture and proper doctrine, which takes studying the scriptures and prayer.
Let me reaffirm once again, no one is saying that Christians should shut off their brains and let the Holy Spirit do all the work. That's not how it works anyways. Proper exegesis is still absolutely necessary, a proper understanding of doctrine and apologetics is still incredibly important, and incredibly helpful. All we're saying (or at least, all I'm say) is that we can't dismiss the role of the Holy Spirit when sharing the gospel, and that personal testimony is a powerful tool in our arsenal, alongside good systematic theology and apologetics. I'm not saying it's better, only that it's important, and powerful.
As for the hyperbole in charismatic congregations, I don't think there's any charismatic guide book that explains general charismatic idiosyncrasies. This is something I, personally, have observed.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostSo, it's your assertion that Luke 12:11b-12 is only directed towards the Twelve, and is not applicable to all of Christ's followers? I think that's a pretty strict reading.
It doesn't seem this is only directed toward the Twelve. Darrell Bock gives us an indication who Luke 12:11b-12 is applicable to in his commentary,
Acknowledging that the Holy Spirit can help us in what to say, or bring things to our remembrance is not acknowledging that everything that we say or do is perfect, or without interference from our human nature/our own minds. Again, we discern the difference by seeing if it aligns with scripture and proper doctrine, which takes studying the scriptures and prayer.
is that we can't dismiss the role of the Holy Spirit when sharing the gospel, and that personal testimony is a powerful tool in our arsenal, alongside good systematic theology and apologetics. I'm not saying it's better, only that it's important, and powerful.
As for the hyperbole in charismatic congregations, I don't think there's any charismatic guide book that explains general charismatic idiosyncrasies. This is something I, personally, have observed.Last edited by jpholding; 06-30-2016, 07:53 PM.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnyway, I opened the door, pointed to the sign, and asked "Are you here to hear about Jesus?"
The man held up the iPad and said, "we want to tell you about Jesus"....
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Originally posted by jpholding View PostJoyce Meyer said the same thing. So how does she end up with fruit salad messages and sex advice
I know of no text that disparages the production of fruit salad, although there probably should be one.Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17
I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer
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I guess people who bought those books looking for good insight now have...
*puts on sunglasses
...Meyer's remorse.
Here, have some kale.Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17
I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer
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JP,
Regarding Luke 12:8 & 10, While it is true Jesus was address the 12 referring to the "you" He addressed, the "whosoever" πας meaning anyone.
And Luke 12:11 was not limited to synagogues, but included ". . . rulers, and authorities . . . ." Further comment could and would be helpful I think. Thanks.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by psstein View PostNo, I haven't. I also haven't been a Christian all that long either.
There is no greater joy in this life, in my opinion, for a Christian, than to lead another person to Christ and pray with them as they receive Christ.
It's almost like getting saved* all over again!
*Not quite, but almost -- and I think it's so amazing that this joy is the reward we get, in a sense, for being obedient about sharing the Gospel!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostJP,
Regarding Luke 12:8 & 10, While it is true Jesus was address the 12 referring to the "you" He addressed, the "whosoever" πας meaning anyone.
And Luke 12:11 was not limited to synagogues, but included ". . . rulers, and authorities . . . ." Further comment could and would be helpful I think. Thanks.
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Originally posted by jpholding View PostI haven't been dragged before any rulers or authorities recently either...have you? I'd still say that the promise is for specific oppressive situations where Christians are at a distinct disadvantage. The Spirit's assistance would be a boon at such times. We shouldn't need that for questions at the water cooler.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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