Apologetics And Personal Testimony

[Cow Poke]

No point, I was just curious

OK, good enough, but my memory is a bit fuzzy on that.

[Cow Poke]

Meanwhile, I had yet another opportunity just moments ago to lead a young man to faith in Christ!

[Sparko]

How is it that JP's site is useful to Christians but for some reason they haven't spotted yet this amazing thing that the Holy Spirit isn't involved in his life?

who said that?????

really, these types of strawman comments have no place in a civil discussion.

[Cow Poke]

The Mormons would say the same to you. How do you answer the missionaries that come to your door?

TRUE story......

I was home about 1 PM in my home office, and the doorbell rang. I have a sign on my front door that says...

no solicitors.jpg

I opened the door, and it was obviously JWs, but they had something NEW!!!!! They had their presentation on an iPad!

Anyway, I opened the door, pointed to the sign, and asked "Are you here to hear about Jesus?"

The man held up the iPad and said, "we want to tell you about Jesus"....

I interrupted and said, "So, your religion encourages trickery and deceit?"

The guy looked surprised, and I explained, "if you're not here to hear about Jesus, then you're here on false pretenses".

Normally, I would have engaged them further, but I had Jake trying to get out the door, and my grandkids in the living room, and just didn't have time for that. I just closed the door and left them on the front porch.


AFTER the fact, I thought "I should have just grabbed the iPad, and said 'thanks, I'll read this later'" and closed the door.

anyway

back to the thread!

[Adrift]

I could as easily say that the objection sounds like it comes from someone who hasn't answered or deeply considered the epistemological question I'm posing.



Tells "us"? I congratulate you, I had no idea you had graduated into the elite membership of the apostles.



Then why do pastors make so many exegetical and factual errors? Is Joyce Meyer correct? Or should she have made her husband tuna salad?



Again, I congratulate you on your promotion! Give Peter my regards.



I ask again, then, why pastors make so many errors, etc. Either these aren't the literal and ironclad declarations they are being made out to be; or else we're all exceptionally bad listeners.



I agree to an extent. It sounds an awful lot like the test in Deuteronomy, but without the stones. That said, Mormons confess Jesus as Christ. That means....?



Nope. I just want people to be more discerning. To wit:



It might benefit you to know more. Look up Dan Barker's experience in a cornfield.

Do you think both Bevere and his senior pastor heard from the same Spirit? Or was one or both of them imagining it?



Hyperbolic? Okay, where is that explained? May I have some references from charismatic texts? John Bevere certainly doesn't seem to work that way...Dan Barker never used that line of reasoning or referred ot it...and of course Charles Stanley's no charismatic. At least not last I checked. He's certainly pretty dull as a speaker.

So, it's your assertion that Luke 12:11b-12 is only directed towards the Twelve, and is not applicable to all of Christ's followers? I think that's a pretty strict reading.

Is Luke 12:8-10 also only for the Apostles? Here's the whole passage in context,



It doesn't seem this is only directed toward the Twelve. Darrell Bock gives us an indication who Luke 12:11b-12 is applicable to in his commentary,

Source: Luke by Darrell Bock, 2009

There is nothing to fear in persecution, because the Holy Spirit will teach his people what to say before the synagogues, rulers, and authorities. Their message will be his message. If they reject them, they reject Jesus, but he will serve as the source of strength and wisdom for his people. Thus, by fearing God, disciples have nothing to fear from people.

© Copyright Original Source

Notice Bock is referring to Jesus' people, and his disciples, not the twelve specifically, but all of Jesus' followers. Likewise, Witherington in his commentary on John tells us,

Source: John's Wisdom: A Commentary on the Fourth Gospel by Ben Witherington

If we examine all the passages in the farewell discourses in which the Spirit is referred to, we see that the Spirit has in the main a threefold task: (1) to indwell the believer and convey the divine presence and peace, including Jesus' presence to the believer (14:17-20, 27); (2) to teach the believer and to guide the believer into all truth and to testify to the believer about and on behalf of Jesus (14:26; 15:26); (3) to enable the disciples to testify about Jesus to the world and by means of the Spirit's guidance and power convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment (15:26-27; 16:8-11).

© Copyright Original Source

Witherington doesn't claim that John 14:26 only refers to the Twelve, but to the believer.

Acknowledging that the Holy Spirit can help us in what to say, or bring things to our remembrance is not acknowledging that everything that we say or do is perfect, or without interference from our human nature/our own minds. Again, we discern the difference by seeing if it aligns with scripture and proper doctrine, which takes studying the scriptures and prayer.

Let me reaffirm once again, no one is saying that Christians should shut off their brains and let the Holy Spirit do all the work. That's not how it works anyways. Proper exegesis is still absolutely necessary, a proper understanding of doctrine and apologetics is still incredibly important, and incredibly helpful. All we're saying (or at least, all I'm say) is that we can't dismiss the role of the Holy Spirit when sharing the gospel, and that personal testimony is a powerful tool in our arsenal, alongside good systematic theology and apologetics. I'm not saying it's better, only that it's important, and powerful.

As for the hyperbole in charismatic congregations, I don't think there's any charismatic guide book that explains general charismatic idiosyncrasies. This is something I, personally, have observed.

[jpholding]

So, it's your assertion that Luke 12:11b-12 is only directed towards the Twelve, and is not applicable to all of Christ's followers? I think that's a pretty strict reading.

Oh? How many synagogues (or mosques, or temples) have you been dragged into lately? Actually I wouldn't expand it conceptually past any place where the Gospel is initially being preached. E.g., I might expect it to be happening in places like Mongolia right now. Even so, that doesn't address the most serious question, which is, the epistemology of determining who is getting the real connection to the Spirit, and even if real connections are available, who is actually listening.

It doesn't seem this is only directed toward the Twelve. Darrell Bock gives us an indication who Luke 12:11b-12 is applicable to in his commentary,

Source: Luke by Darrell Bock, 2009

There is nothing to fear in persecution, because the Holy Spirit will teach his people what to say before the synagogues, rulers, and authorities. Their message will be his message. If they reject them, they reject Jesus, but he will serve as the source of strength and wisdom for his people. Thus, by fearing God, disciples have nothing to fear from people.

© Copyright Original Source

And what are his reasons for expanding it to "his people"? Did he provide any, or just assert it? Same question for Witherington, of course. And I have that one; I do not recall that he answered any of the questions I just posed.

Acknowledging that the Holy Spirit can help us in what to say, or bring things to our remembrance is not acknowledging that everything that we say or do is perfect, or without interference from our human nature/our own minds. Again, we discern the difference by seeing if it aligns with scripture and proper doctrine, which takes studying the scriptures and prayer.

Joyce Meyer said the same thing. So how does she end up with fruit salad messages and sex advice, and assuming you agree those are not genuine Spirit transmissions she is getting, what is she doing wrong? I know of no text that disparages the production of fruit salad, although there probably should be one.

is that we can't dismiss the role of the Holy Spirit when sharing the gospel, and that personal testimony is a powerful tool in our arsenal, alongside good systematic theology and apologetics. I'm not saying it's better, only that it's important, and powerful.

I agree. I just really want more Christians to be much, much more discerning and not whip the Holy Spirit out of their pockets every time any other answer fails them. I trust the people at the Indonesian church I currently attend to be far more discerning about such matters than I now trust the average American churchgoer. While conscious of the Spirit as an influence in their lives, they have no temptation to reduce the Spirit to the role of Stanley's Chicken Soup Advisor.

As for the hyperbole in charismatic congregations, I don't think there's any charismatic guide book that explains general charismatic idiosyncrasies. This is something I, personally, have observed.

I wish Benny Hinn had gotten the message. I nearly lost a good friend to atheism because of that charlatan.

[jpholding]

Anyway, I opened the door, pointed to the sign, and asked "Are you here to hear about Jesus?"

The man held up the iPad and said, "we want to tell you about Jesus"....

Great. So now the JWs have gone from being Arian heretics to thinking that Jesus is an iPad.

[fm93]

Joyce Meyer said the same thing. So how does she end up with fruit salad messages and sex advice

I hadn't heard about that second thing in regard to Meyer...

I know of no text that disparages the production of fruit salad, although there probably should be one.

[jpholding]

I hadn't heard about that second thing in regard to Meyer...

Here, have some kale.

[fm93]

I guess people who bought those books looking for good insight now have...

*puts on sunglasses

...Meyer's remorse.

Here, have some kale.

Oh look, the abomination that causes desolation.

[37818]

JP,

Regarding Luke 12:8 & 10, While it is true Jesus was address the 12 referring to the "you" He addressed, the "whosoever" πας meaning anyone.

And Luke 12:11 was not limited to synagogues, but included ". . . rulers, and authorities . . . ." Further comment could and would be helpful I think. Thanks.

[psstein]

I'm curious... have you actually prayed with somebody as they received Christ as savior?

No, I haven't. I also haven't been a Christian all that long either.

[Cow Poke]

No, I haven't. I also haven't been a Christian all that long either.

OK, thanks.

There is no greater joy in this life, in my opinion, for a Christian, than to lead another person to Christ and pray with them as they receive Christ.
It's almost like getting saved* all over again!


*Not quite, but almost -- and I think it's so amazing that this joy is the reward we get, in a sense, for being obedient about sharing the Gospel!

[jpholding]

JP,

Regarding Luke 12:8 & 10, While it is true Jesus was address the 12 referring to the "you" He addressed, the "whosoever" πας meaning anyone.

And Luke 12:11 was not limited to synagogues, but included ". . . rulers, and authorities . . . ." Further comment could and would be helpful I think. Thanks.

I haven't been dragged before any rulers or authorities recently either...have you? I'd still say that the promise is for specific oppressive situations where Christians are at a distinct disadvantage. The Spirit's assistance would be a boon at such times. We shouldn't need that for questions at the water cooler.

[37818]

I haven't been dragged before any rulers or authorities recently either...have you? I'd still say that the promise is for specific oppressive situations where Christians are at a distinct disadvantage. The Spirit's assistance would be a boon at such times. We shouldn't need that for questions at the water cooler.

OK. Your argument(s) have been more anecdotal then of Biblical exegetical help. From Luke 12:1 the following comments addressed to them as "you" included more than Jesus' apostles in training whom is was primarily addressing. And is evidenced further by the one mentioned in v.13 and in v.16 Jesus presents a parable [ref also Luke 8:10 in this regard].