Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Forum Rules: Here
Find out if Caesar crossed the Rubicon or threw a dollar across it.
This is the forum where world history, in general, can be discussed. Since the WH201, like the other fora in the World History department, is not limited to participation along lines of theology, all may post here.
Please keep the Campus Decorum in mind when posting here--while 'belief' restrictions are not in place, common decency is.
The Tweb rules are in force . . . we're watching you.
Forum Rules: Here
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Will the real date of the Exodus please stand out.
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post??? Do you find it much, much harder--maybe impossible--to argue the Bible reliably reported the exodus?
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostAre you arguing from silence?
Actually it is likely that some events, and some migrations during times of the collapse and possibly near collapse of Egyptian kingdoms contribute to the development of these legends and myths.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe issue of silence is the lack of archealogical evidence to justify anything approximating the remote accuracy of the Genesis account.
Actually it is likely that some events, and some migrations during times of the collapse and possibly near collapse of Egyptian kingdoms contribute to the development of these legends and myths.
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostI've mentioned this before, but maybe you forgot. Isn't it so that once upon time there was no evidence of the Hittite people. Archaeologists declared that it didn't ever exist. Lo and behold, one day evidence did start to turn up. Now many museums proudly display Hittite artifices.
Once upon a time . . . better describes the evidence available for dating and confirming the events described. Yes, there are archealogical discoveries that confirm some events, and peoples recorded in the Bible, but the scale of the search for evidence and dating the Exodus accounts is by all accounts huge, and has scoured all possible sources. All that has been found is a lot of evidence that questions the account as remotely accurate, and still speculation only concerning dates and evidence of the events recorded in Bible.
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Evidence of what you posted about seven days earlier. Evidence of the thread title. How bad is your Alzheimer's now?Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)
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Originally posted by Adam View PostHow bad is your Alzheimer's now?That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostTwo problems here: (1) The Egyptian hieroglyphics and Babylonian tablets are original records at the time the events are claimed to take place.
The cuneiform tablets present several features that are much more familiar from the Old Testament. They present problems of interpretation, dating, theology, editing, source-criticism, legend-formation, literary motifs and their use, just as the OT does. Some texts that used to be taken for sober history, are better understood as historiography. Sargon the Great is historical, but all the texts about him are not. He is usually dated in the 2200s - the date accepted a century ago was 3800 or so, on the strength of a calculation found in a text from a building deposit laid down in the reign of Nabonidus (555-538). The Epic of Gilgamesh is known to have been edited - its 11th tablet contains a well-known Flood legend that very probably influenced that in Genesis. The Flood legend in Gilgamesh is itself related to a Sumerian Flood legend, and to a text known as the Atra-hasis legend. The narrative of Solomon's building of the Temple has been estimated to have over 20 similarities to the account of Gudea's building of a temple to the god Ningirsu. So there more than a few points of contact between these cultures, and a fair amount of what is thought of as typically Old Testamental - sometimes to its discredit - turns out to be part of a shared body of ideas about the world.
Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch is a compilation that has been edited, redacted, added to from earlier older non-Hebrew sources. nothing in the Pentateuch can be dated before ~700 BCE. (2) Concerning the evidence of ancient history, nothing is proven nor disproven. In fact it is illogical and irrational to attempt to disprove anything in this context. I can claim that Moses was an alien, and some reference in the OT describe alien spacecraft and you could not prove me wrong. The question is are individual sources corroborated with other sources and archealogical evidence. The fact is most of Exodus cannot be corroborated with outside sources and archealogical evidence.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostActually I disagree that Arabia has been inaccessible in recent history.
There have been many archeaological expeditions over the years exploring possible evidence and routes of Exodus.
What kind of remains would the desert yield after 3200-3500 years ?
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostIf I may niggle a bit: some of them are. The Birth-Legend of Sargon says his mother was a hierodule, and that he was found by a river by a certain Aqqi. This may all be true, but it is very like other legends of great rulers discovered as foundlings on or near water. Even with seemingly straightforward texts like the Sennacherib Prism that contains an account of Sennacherib's campaign against Judah, it seems highly likely that the numbers at least are inflated, for the sake of making a theological point: the gods of Assyria are greater than the god of the Jews. The Cyrus Cylinder relates a real event, the taking, by Cyrus II, of the city of Babylon; but it is strongly propagandistic, painting the defeated Nabonidus as a monster of impiety, and Cyrus himself as the pious restorer to their shrines of the gods of Babylon.
The cuneiform tablets present several features that are much more familiar from the Old Testament. They present problems of interpretation, dating, theology, editing, source-criticism, legend-formation, literary motifs and their use, just as the OT does. Some texts that used to be taken for sober history, are better understood as historiography. Sargon the Great is historical, but all the texts about him are not. He is usually dated in the 2200s - the date accepted a century ago was 3800 or so, on the strength of a calculation found in a text from a building deposit laid down in the reign of Nabonidus (555-538). The Epic of Gilgamesh is known to have been edited - its 11th tablet contains a well-known Flood legend that very probably influenced that in Genesis. The Flood legend in Gilgamesh is itself related to a Sumerian Flood legend, and to a text known as the Atra-hasis legend. The narrative of Solomon's building of the Temple has been estimated to have over 20 similarities to the account of Gudea's building of a temple to the god Ningirsu. So there more than a few points of contact between these cultures, and a fair amount of what is thought of as typically Old Testamental - sometimes to its discredit - turns out to be part of a shared body of ideas about the world.
Of course, the writings do include myths, legends, and religious writings that may be interwoven with the factual records like all ancient cultures, but the basis of these record is factual over time they were written, much of it rather mundane records.
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostPere Roland de Vaux identified six different suggested identities for Sinai. I like his theory that the Exodus was in fact at least two Exoduses, with different routes, at different times. If there is anything in the suggestion, that may explain the inconsistencies in the canonical texts: they are recording the traditions of more than one event.
The descriptions in Exodus refer to known well used trading routes in Sinai, and yes smaller groups likely did move, migrate, and trade through this region over the millennia, including cites of known communities that were mostly sheep and goat herding cultures.
What kind of remains would the desert yield after 3200-3500 years ?
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThere are 5 dates for the Exodus.
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About 1540 BCE a very early date based on Acts 13:16-22 (with 1 Kings 2:11) calc 570 years.
About 2450 BCE a very early date - an archaeological based date. (I've not read the book.)
Here is what I know, the 1 Kings 6:1 has been given different values, the LXX has 440 years for example.
As for 2450 BC, 1510 could be misdated to that if carbon level at the time was such as to give 940 years for free.
Using former ... 89.252%.
I wonder what exact archaeological thing has been so dated.
I think C14 level was already higher, and misdatable to 1700 or so BC. (1700-1510=190, 97.728%).
I base that "1700 or so BC" on the case for the Pharao with the bloodthirsty decree being Amenemhet III, conventually dated as sth like 1700 BC.
Remember, the C14 level cannot rise too steeply between Exodus and Christ, and by Christ, unless we accept a shorter chronology for NT history (I have seen sn make a case for us being in 1700's AD!), C14 level must already be up at c. 100%.http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html
Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!
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