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Will the real date of the Exodus please stand out.

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  • Will the real date of the Exodus please stand out.

    There are 5 dates for the Exodus.

    About 1250 BCE the widely held historical date.
    About 1312 BCE the orthodox Jewish calendar date.
    About 1450 BCE the conservative Christian Biblical date. (1 Kings 6:1 ref 480 years)
    About 1540 BCE a very early date based on Acts 13:16-22 (with 1 Kings 2:11) calc 570 years.
    About 2450 BCE a very early date - an archaeological based date. (I've not read the book.)

    Here is what I know, the 1 Kings 6:1 has been given different values, the LXX has 440 years for example.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  • #2
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    There are 5 dates for the Exodus.

    About 1250 BCE the widely held historical date.
    About 1312 BCE the orthodox Jewish calendar date.
    About 1450 BCE the conservative Christian Biblical date. (1 Kings 6:1 ref 480 years)
    About 1540 BCE a very early date based on Acts 13:16-22 (with 1 Kings 2:11) calc 570 years.
    About 2450 BCE a very early date - an archaeological based date. (I've not read the book.)

    Here is what I know, the 1 Kings 6:1 has been given different values, the LXX has 440 years for example.
    The date 1450 BCE is popular amongst some literalist Christians due to the mentioned reference in 1 Kings 6:1 and a dating of the Temple construction around 970-960 BCE. This, however, presents other problems for the literalist. For example, the cities Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses, mentioned in Exodus 1:11, didn't exist in the 15th Century BCE. This would also place the Exodus during the reign of Thutmose III, a wildly successful pharaoh who enjoyed a long and prosperous kingship-- he doesn't seem to be an ideal candidate for the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

    The 1250 BCE date makes better sense of the mentions of Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses, but suffers from a similar issue, as this would place the Exodus in the middle of the reign of Rameses II, whose 66 years on the throne made him the longest serving king in Egypt's 3000 year history. His reign is extremely well known, incredibly prosperous, and shows no signs of having been marred by such an incredibly embarrassing event as the Exodus would have been.

    I'm not very familiar with the arguments for or against the other dates.

    EDIT: The 1540 BCE date is interesting, as that would coincide with Ahmose I's victory over the Hyksos to restore ethnic Egyptian rule. Given the philological relationship between Ahmose and Moses, I wonder if there's a case to be made that the Exodus was a highly mythologized version of this ejection of Semitic peoples from Egypt.
    Last edited by Boxing Pythagoras; 12-24-2014, 11:55 PM.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
      The date 1450 BCE is popular amongst some literalist Christians due to the mentioned reference in 1 Kings 6:1 and a dating of the Temple construction around 970-960 BCE. This, however, presents other problems for the literalist. For example, the cities Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses, mentioned in Exodus 1:11, didn't exist in the 15th Century BCE. This would also place the Exodus during the reign of Thutmose III, a wildly successful pharaoh who enjoyed a long and prosperous kingship-- he doesn't seem to be an ideal candidate for the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

      The 1250 BCE date makes better sense of the mentions of Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses, but suffers from a similar issue, as this would place the Exodus in the middle of the reign of Rameses II, whose 66 years on the throne made him the longest serving king in Egypt's 3000 year history. His reign is extremely well known, incredibly prosperous, and shows no signs of having been marred by such an incredibly embarrassing event as the Exodus would have been.

      I'm not very familiar with the arguments for or against the other dates.

      EDIT: The 1540 BCE date is interesting, as that would coincide with Ahmose I's victory over the Hyksos to restore ethnic Egyptian rule. Given the philological relationship between Ahmose and Moses, I wonder if there's a case to be made that the Exodus was a highly mythologized version of this ejection of Semitic peoples from Egypt.
      I'm a literalist. I also believe 480 years in 1 Kings 6:1 is likely a textual error as well. There is evidence this is likely (LXX 440 years for example).

      You cited that ". . . the cities Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses, mentioned in Exodus 1:11, didn't exist in the 15th Century BCE." I have not looked at that problem. Wouldn't it also be a problem for 1540 BCE?

      Also the 400 years was not all in Egypt. But from Genesis 21:9 to the exodus and giving of the Law to Moses. (Yes, this is an interpretation base on the 430 years being from Abram Genesis 12: to the exodus and the giving of the Law to Moses (see Galatians 3:17).) Also there are known variant readings of Exodus 12:40.
      Last edited by 37818; 12-25-2014, 01:13 PM.
      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

      Comment


      • #4
        I've been interested in a discussion which puts Exodus at 1585BC. Such a year is calculated from the number of years calculated from scriptures using an apparently consistent fashion of inclusion of exiled years into an adjusted biblical chronology. I've seen this year being described as a strong fit to the standard (or, sometimes only, adjusted standard) historical timeline of the peoples and places involved in the biblical account.

        Thus far I have not read scholarly documents to see what has been considered there. It would be interesting to see which directions the conversation have gone.

        Two interesting articles I've looked at are:
        http://ldolphin.org/barrychron.html
        http://ldolphin.org/alanm/exod2b.html

        The latter article compares the percentage match ups of proposed Exodus years against the chronology of locations identified through archaeology.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          I'm a literalist. I also believe 480 years in 1 Kings 6:1 is likely a textual error as well. There is evidence this is likely (LXX 440 years for example).
          The LXX's 440 years would also place the Exodus prior to the founding of Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses. The only date from your original list which would work with the mention of these cities would be 1250 BCE. Of course, this does rely on the assumption that the "Pithom and Rameses" mentioned in Exodus actually are references to the treasure cities of Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses.
          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

          Comment


          • #6
            "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
            -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

            Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
            1 Corinthians 16:13

            "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
            -Ben Witherington III

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              The LXX's 440 years would also place the Exodus prior to the founding of Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses. The only date from your original list which would work with the mention of these cities would be 1250 BCE. Of course, this does rely on the assumption that the "Pithom and Rameses" mentioned in Exodus actually are references to the treasure cities of Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses.
              The LXX date is evidence that the 480 date may not be correct. Adam Clarke cites Clemens Alexandrinus giving it 570. Acts 13:16-22 with 1 Kings 2:11, we can calculate, 570 (40 + 450 + 40 + 40).

              Also there was an area of land was called Rameses in the time of Joseph (Genesis 47:11). And there are real disagreements to those locations in Exodus 1:11.
              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                The date 1450 BCE is popular amongst some literalist Christians due to the mentioned reference in 1 Kings 6:1 and a dating of the Temple construction around 970-960 BCE. This, however, presents other problems for the literalist. For example, the cities Pi-Atum and Pi-Rameses, mentioned in Exodus 1:11, didn't exist in the 15th Century BCE.

                .
                why not?
                To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                  why not?
                  Archaeological and Egyptological evidence give us very strong evidence for when these cities were built and occupied. The name of the city Pi-Rameses, alone, gives us a rather big clue as to dating, since it means "the House of Rameses." The city was one of the major construction projects of Rameses II in the 13th Century BCE. If the Bible is accurate in claiming that the Hebrews were making bricks for that city, then the Exodus could not have occurred earlier than 1250 BCE.
                  "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                  --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                    Archaeological and Egyptological evidence give us very strong evidence for when these cities were built and occupied. The name of the city Pi-Rameses, alone, gives us a rather big clue as to dating, since it means "the House of Rameses." The city was one of the major construction projects of Rameses II in the 13th Century BCE. If the Bible is accurate in claiming that the Hebrews were making bricks for that city, then the Exodus could not have occurred earlier than 1250 BCE.
                    as far as the Bible goes, the name "Rameses (or Ramses) was in use a few hundred years before the Exodus account (remember the Joseph story)
                    In Genesis 47:11 And Joseph placed his father and his brethren, and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded.
                    So we cannot assume the city was named after Rameses II (The Great)

                    ok, I pulled up my old vcr set of 'HISTORY OF ANCIENT EGYPT' , lecturer Professor Bob Brier
                    ...wow, he had black hair in the lecture series... oh well, its an old set

                    and in Lecture 30 'Ramses the Great--The Early Years' , Prof Brier informs us that the 'RA' part refers to the sun god RA, and the mes or meses ....or Moses for example, (an Egyptian name, not a Hebrew name) means begotten of, so the Rameses kings were named 'begotten of Ra'

                    and the cities could have been built under Rameses I (that would be grandfather of Rameses II, not father

                    even Wiki notes that :
                    Pi-Ramesses (/pɪər.ɑːmɛs/); (Pi-Ramesses Aa-nakhtu, meaning "House of Ramesses, Great in Victory")[1] was the new capital built by the Nineteenth Dynasty of Egypt Pharaoh Ramesses II (Ramesses the Great, reigned 12791213 BC) at Qantir, near the old site of Avaris. The city had previously served as a summer palace under Seti I (c. 12901279 BC), and may have been originally founded by Ramesses I (c. 12921290 BC) while he served under Horemheb.
                    To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                      as far as the Bible goes, the name "Rameses (or Ramses) was in use a few hundred years before the Exodus account (remember the Joseph story)
                      In Genesis 47:11 And Joseph placed his father and his brethren, and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded.
                      So we cannot assume the city was named after Rameses II (The Great)
                      Personally, I would argue that the mention of Rameses in Gen 47:11 is an anachronism.

                      and the cities could have been built under Rameses I (that would be grandfather of Rameses II, not father
                      This is a possibility, but even so, it would only serve to push the Exodus to the beginning of the 13th Century BCE. The earlier dates from the OP would still seem to have trouble in this regard.
                      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                        Personally, I would argue that the mention of Rameses in Gen 47:11 is an anachronism.

                        This is a possibility, but even so, it would only serve to push the Exodus to the beginning of the 13th Century BCE. The earlier dates from the OP would still seem to have trouble in this regard.
                        http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/492674/Re

                        Ra worship had been around since 4th Dynasty (2575-2465),

                        ...so a land of Ra , or land "begotten" of Ra (land of Rameses) was most likely IMHO, around long before the Ramesside Kings came along,
                        ...probably even before Thutmose pharoahs
                        To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                          http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/492674/Re

                          Ra worship had been around since 4th Dynasty (2575-2465),

                          ...so a land of Ra , or land "begotten" of Ra (land of Rameses) was most likely IMHO, around long before the Ramesside Kings came along,
                          ...probably even before Thutmose pharoahs
                          The fact that Ra was worshiped does not imply that the name "Rameses" was attached to any cities prior to the Ramesside kings. Do you know of any evidence that would link that name to any cities prior to the reign of Rameses I?
                          "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                          --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                            The fact that Ra was worshiped does not imply that the name "Rameses" was attached to any cities prior to the Ramesside kings. Do you know of any evidence that would link that name to any cities prior to the reign of Rameses I?
                            I got about 8 or 9 Ancient Egypt books.
                            Don't recall, but I never looked that up before. ..
                            ...or maybe I did? Don't remember. ..
                            I can look.
                            but, what would you call a city if you were building it in the land of Rameses?
                            To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jordanriver View Post
                              I got about 8 or 9 Ancient Egypt books.
                              Don't recall, but I never looked that up before. ..
                              ...or maybe I did? Don't remember. ..
                              I can look.
                              but, what would you call a city if you were building it in the land of Rameses?
                              I'll expand it beyond cities-- do you know of any evidence that any area was referred to as "the land of Rameses" or similar prior to the Ramesside kings?
                              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                              Comment

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