Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

The author of Matthew did not translate the book of Isaiah.

No, he didn't. But he took passages out of Isaiah, contorted them, and shoehorned Jesus into them.

[tabibito]

What was the average age of marriage and subsequent first childbirth in Iron Age Palestine? I will bet it was in the teens. Therefore for the prophet to prophesy that a young woman would conceive does not automatically confer the young woman was a virgin. Only if women in Iron Age Palestine were waiting to marry and give birth to their first child in the late twenties could your logic apply here.

Exactly so. The prophet said
the pregnancy
will be
a sign
from God.
"A sign from God" means it will be a miracle - which doesn't apply when a pregnancy arises in the normal way.

In addition, if you read the entire chapter, it is very obvious from the context that the prophecy was fulfilled during the reign of King Ahaz, seven hundred years before Jesus. Whoever wrote the gospel of Matthew went on a desparate scavenger hunt through the Hebrew Bible to shoehorn Jesus into passages that could be contorted to prophesy his future birth, life, and death. It is really shameful and pathetic. It would be like Muslims trying to shoehorn Mohammad into the New Testament (which they do!).

Yes - the extant Hebrew scriptures do make it seem that way. Maybe the pre-AD 150 copies could be made to read that way - but they haven't eliminated the statement
the pregnancy
will be
a sign
from God.

No Jew I have encountered was ever able to mess with the scripture enough to make it seem otherwise.

[Gary]

Few things:

1) There was a very, very early high Christology. Jesus was seen as God almost right off the bat. They were also argued to be the same thing, which is why adoptionism actually became a serious heresy. See Ehrman's Lost Christianities for a discussion of adoptionism.

2) The usual "parthenos" vs. "bethulah" vs. "almah" thing yet again raises its ugly head. What people should know is that "almah" refers to a young maiden, the implication of which is... guess what, a virgin.

3) The dating for some of the OT to Josiah has problems, and people love to ignore those problems. Josiah does have monotheistic reforms, but just claiming that the priestly class devised the entire thing very late on is simply wrong. There are clearly early traditions within it.

What Christian source do we have for the period between 30 AD to 55 AD? All we have is the Creed listed in First Corinthians. This Creed says nothing about Jesus relationship to Yahweh and the Holy Spirit in a Trinity, therefore, we have no contemporary record of what the earliest Christians believed on this concept. As the Islamic article states, not even Paul mentions a Trinity. The passages that could be interpreted as inferring a Trinity do not appear until the Gospel of John, written at the end of the first century! Therefore, every one of the original Eleven were most likely long dead when the author of John wrote his gospel.

We have zero evidence what the earliest Christians believed other than possibly the Creed in First Corinthians.

This is my point about the Christian belief system. It is so tenuously held together by assumptions and hearsay. It is like constructing a ship out of paper and scotch tape and expecting it to float.

[Gary]

Exactly so. The prophet said
the pregnancy
will be
a sign
from God.
"A sign from God" means it will be a miracle - which doesn't apply when a pregnancy arises in the normal way.

Yes - the extant Hebrew scriptures do make it seem that way. Maybe the pre-AD 150 copies could be made to read that way - but they haven't eliminated the statement
the pregnancy
will be
a sign
from God.

No Jew I have encountered was ever able to mess with the scripture enough to make it seem otherwise.

[Mikeenders]

Please note Gary's source. As usual, he's reaching for anything he agrees with, without critically evaluating its merit.

Its really quite ridiculous. He is just doing what he did with Ferguson's article and even Ferguson objected. he's just using Tweb to publish for other people in this space. Just today alone four or five of his posts are nothing but copy and pastes. He engages on nothing, runs away from every counter point and now he is off to the races on at least his 15th subject with the virgin birth and the trinity.

[Mikeenders]

pigeons (aka flying bundles of stupidity) much as I love them all, I have to admit that even the two geniuses in the flock, Tack and Doujou, are each as thick as a brick.

Late last week, I decided to move the eighty little darlings from home to a location where they - and the neighbours would be happier. First step was to get them from the back yard, and to a waypoint. I went to the lane behind the house, and started to toss small pieces of bread up to where they could see it, and into the lane.
First, they congregated on the side of the shed roof and watched me throwing the bread. Then they ran to the end of the shed and looked down into the yard where they were accustomed to being fed. I tossed another piece of bread - they ran back to the side of the shed roof and looked at me. Then they ran to the end of the shed roof again. (Corrugated Iron roof - you can imagine the clattering it made.) After they had repeated the procedure half a dozen times or more - they all took to the air and went straight to the old feeding area. After a couple of minutes the first of them came to me, and in short order, the rest followed.

All this messing around with Gary running off to sites with no food for thought and coming back here with nothing worthwhile ....

It kind of makes me wonder ...

ROFL.....what a PERFECT story for the moment. Take a bow.

[Mikeenders]

The author of Matthew did not translate the book of Isaiah.

HAHAHA . I am turning catholic today. Saints preserve us. Gary has spoken - Matthew did not write the Septuagint. Who knew?

[tabibito]

Depending on the scholar, Paul's date of death is listed as between AD 58 -67. Every epistle he wrote is likely have originated during the time frame you have nominated.

Peter died in AD64 - his epistles weren't written posthumously.

The author of the first epistle of John (if no other epistle) died circa AD 100 - but there is no doubt that he was a contemporary of Christ.
Jude is considered authentic, but the exact identity of the author is unknown.

So - At least 2 and probably 4 writers of the epistles - producing between them the bulk of the New Testament, even without taking the gospels into account, have recorded the beliefs of the first generation of Christians.

[Gary]

Depending on the scholar, Paul's date of death is listed as between AD 58 -67. Every epistle he wrote is likely have originated during the time frame you have nominated.

Peter died in AD64 - his epistles weren't written posthumously.

The author of the first epistle of John (if no other epistle) died circa AD 100 - but there is no doubt that he was a contemporary of Christ.
Jude is considered authentic, but the exact identity of the author is unknown.

So - At least 2 and probably 4 writers of the epistles - producing between them the bulk of the New Testament, even without taking the gospels into account, have recorded the beliefs of the first generation of Christians.

You are mad as a Hatter, on this one, Tabby.

Please give me a source who says that a majority of NT scholars believe what you have just written.

[Gary]

Not to mention that the people who produced the translation to parthenos were themselves highly educated native Jewish scholars - so we have modern Jewish scholars claiming that the ancient Jews who spoke the language as a mother tongue, and who were well acquainted with Koine ... didn't know what they were talking about.

Additionally - these modern Jewish scholars are claiming that a pregnancy arising in the normal way was somehow also a sign from God.

http://outreachjudaism.org/septuagint-virgin-birth/

[One Bad Pig]

Yet another copy/paste.

Drink!

[Gary]

Yet another copy/paste.

Drink!

http://outreachjudaism.org/septuagint-virgin-birth/

The Jewish people charge the author of the Gospel of Matthew with deliberate FRAUD

[Gary]

[Mikeenders]

Regarding your assertion that Matthew was quoting from the Septuagint, nowhere in the Book of Matthew does the word Septuagint appear, or, for that matter, is there any reference to a Greek translation of the Bible ever mentioned in all of the New Testament.

That has to be one of the stupidest points I have ever seen made on a forum. Unless a translation is named in a text it can't be whats quoted from.

"to be or not to be "

is not a quote from who you think it is because I did not name him.

Garyisms : When you pretend you have a point but don't even understand the premise of it

[psstein]

What Christian source do we have for the period between 30 AD to 55 AD? All we have is the Creed listed in First Corinthians. This Creed says nothing about Jesus relationship to Yahweh and the Holy Spirit in a Trinity, therefore, we have no contemporary record of what the earliest Christians believed on this concept. As the Islamic article states, not even Paul mentions a Trinity. The passages that could be interpreted as inferring a Trinity do not appear until the Gospel of John, written at the end of the first century! Therefore, every one of the original Eleven were most likely long dead when the author of John wrote his gospel.

We have zero evidence what the earliest Christians believed other than possibly the Creed in First Corinthians.

This is my point about the Christian belief system. It is so tenuously held together by assumptions and hearsay. It is like constructing a ship out of paper and scotch tape and expecting it to float.

That's actually totally untrue. Paul quotes a number of what we would call "pre-Pauline creeds," and there are clear remnants of oral traditions throughout the book of Acts. The Trinity? How about the end of Matthew, where the risen Jesus says "go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

You desperately need to read Hurtado's Lord Jesus Christ or One God, One Lord, as well as Bauckham's work on early high Christology. Or keep making stupid comments, doesn't matter to me at all.