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Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Mikeenders View PostAs an already self confessed minimalist and OT skeptic it doesn't pain you at all. Lets not try pretend you are being forced to agree with Gary. As I have said before you are not that far from Gary in logic or in conclusions. I agreed with Gary on that several pages ago. At this point we should not have to be pretending otherwise. Let just be who we are.
A)Nick's point would still stand. You are a minimalist fantasizing that Kadesh was a city of the israelites. You stated the above like it was an inhabited city when at best it was more like a frequent stop over for nomads
B) You are really still relying on identifications of 40 years ago to make your absence of evidence equals conclusion of absence work??????
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/d...ere-is-kadesh/ (with the amount of new information coming to light I would not be surprised if the exodus is the next Davidic Monarchy for biblical (non) scholarship and it happens within the next five years)
c) How could you not know the location is disputed? How can anyone make an absence of evidence argument by pointing to one excavation of a location still in dispute??
Or does this highlight yet another weakness of the consensus argument? even when things are in dispute we just do a head count and whoever comes out on top the issue is settled? That not scholarship. That's laziness and inattention to reality.
b) I would love the Exodus to have happened. The Davidic monarchy wasn't denied by anyone except a handful of scholars. (Thompson's early work is actually quite good, for the record). You are correctly pointing out that I don't have enough hours in the day to read all the material I should, yet alone the new material.
c) I am aware the location is disputed.
Again, I would love the Biblical narrative to be accurate. I want the Israelites to be at Sinai, receiving the Torah and Commandments from God Himself. I want to see how many of the loudmouth minimalists (i.e. Lemiche and Davies especially, but also Thompson and Van Seters) would react. They did not like the findings at Tel Dan, and I imagine they'd come up with a contortion to get out of this one too.
Better late than never but for someone so settled of being right shouldn't you already be aware?Last edited by psstein; 09-29-2015, 12:41 AM.
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Gary have you seen this? http://www.patternsofevidence.com/en/#. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostGary have you seen this? http://www.patternsofevidence.com/en/#
That would play to the accounts of the Pentateuch not being recorded by Moses, but by some later generation.
No surprises on either issue.
Though it would perhaps call the timing of the Exodus as being during the reign of Amenhotep III into question.Last edited by tabibito; 09-29-2015, 08:50 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSo - if the video trailer accurately portrays the state of play, the exodus occurred a couple hundred years earlier than the Bible record suggests.
That would play to the accounts of the Pentateuch not being recorded by Moses, but by some later generation.
No surprises on either issue.
Though it would perhaps call the timing of the Exodus as being during the reign of Amenhotep III into question.Last edited by 37818; 09-29-2015, 09:02 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Gary View PostThe Book of Mormon claims that ancient Hebrews came to North America and used horses. Archeology has not found one trace of ancient Hebrews anywhere in North America nor have they found any fossil evidence of horses in North America prior to the arrival of the Spanish.
Still, the Mormon theory is clearly nonsense - if ancient Jews had domesticated American horses, there would have been no reason for the American horse to become extinct.Last edited by archaeopteryx; 09-29-2015, 09:14 AM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostWhy is there zero record anywhere in the ancient world of mighty Egypt's greatest defeat: the total destruction of Pharaoh's army; drowning in a sea chasing their runaway slaves?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by archaeopteryx View PostAs well as graves.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThat would play to the accounts of the Pentateuch not being recorded by Moses, but by some later generation.
a. the Yahwist source (J) : written c. 950 BCE in the southern Kingdom of Judah.
b. the Elohist source (E) : written c. 850 BCE in the northern Kingdom of Israel.
(these two were redacted in Jerusalem around 750 BCE and combined into a single (JE) volume.
c. the Deuteronomist source (D) : written c. 600 BCE in Jerusalem during a period of religious reform, possibly by King Josiah himself or his merlin, Jeremiah.
d. the Priestly source (P) : written c. 500 BCE by Kohanim (Jewish priests) in exile in Babylon, who felt that the Yahwist (J) source had depicted a god who was too anthropomorphic for their tastes (walks in the garden, personally crafting garments on the celestial Singer, etc.), and intended that their version of a more regal one replace that of the J source, but the Redactor, who combined all four works into the Torah in 400 BCE, had no idea which to trash and thus, included them both.
That is the primary reason that so many inconsistencies exist in the Torah - because various parts were written by different authors, with different viewpoints, thus we have the Ten Commandments given both on Mt. Sinai and Mt. Horeb (as well as many, MANY others).
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Originally posted by psstein View PostI am not a minimalist, nor am I a maximalist. I am what the evidence actually demands. I believe the Exodus in the OT is fictitious. I believe there is a clear historical memory of enslaved peoples in Egypt escaping. That much is obvious. The biggest issue is that the Exodus in the OT is so far removed from whatever happened that it's almost impossible to tell what the nature of this escape was.
I don't think Qadesh is some city. If you're there for 38 years, you leave evidence. You'd have bones from sacrifices or a garbage pit. Both, most likely.
I would love the Exodus to have happened. The Davidic monarchy wasn't denied by anyone except a handful of scholars. (Thompson's early work is actually quite good, for the record). You are correctly pointing out that I don't have enough hours in the day to read all the material I should, yet alone the new material.
c) I am aware the location is disputed.
As you may (or may not) know, the literature in both OT and NT is voluminous. There's more than a man could handle in a dozen lifetimes.
Its really not if you have an archaeological and document evidence focus. we really don't get a landslide of that each year. If however you are in essence reading through argumentations/narratives then sure .
I am aware of Hoffmeier's Israel in Egypt and read it some time ago. I have also read Kitchen's On the Reliability of the Old Testament, and I can send you my Amazon review of it if you so desire. Israel in Sinai I look forward to. Unfortunately, many of the arguments boil down to "the Bible is evidence" and arguments against arguments from silence.
You seem to just summarize and dismiss but I am not even sure you really can because many of your own arguments boil down to arguments for silence and pronouncements similar in form (but not in conclusion) . Frankly saying the Bible is evidence is just as valid as saying abraham means father of many so its theological.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostMike,
You are a fundamentalist.
At least Stein is using his brain...most of the time...when examining the evidence. You on the other hand have already decided what is and what cannot be Truth.
An interesting fact abut you Gary that you might not know (somethings are seen better from the outside). You tend to get more ad hom prone and erratic when some of your key points evaporate. Its your "tell" Never play poker.
You are like Hoffmeier:
Now go ahead and try and claim that Hershel Shank just follows an agenda. Of course its all just fluff and puff that anyone that supports the Biblical text is automatically wrong. Who got the Davidic monarchy right after all? the Hoffmeiers of the world or the FInkelsteins?
At least Stein is using his brain...most of the time...
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Originally posted by MikeendersYou seem to just summarize and dismiss but I am not even sure you really can because many of your own arguments boil down to arguments for silence and pronouncements similar in form (but not in conclusion) . Frankly saying the Bible is evidence is just as valid as saying abraham means father of many so its theological.
https://youtu.be/8vHganYiOQM1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSo - if the video trailer accurately portrays the state of play, the exodus occurred a couple hundred years earlier than the Bible record suggests.
That would play to the accounts of the Pentateuch not being recorded by Moses, but by some later generation.
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