Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

Dear world of NT scholarship.

Gary has spoken. He has no credentials and no study whatsoever, but he knows better than you! Sit down and shut up!

Yes, when it comes to the abilities of brain-dead bodies, I as a physician am much more qualified that all the graduates of Christian seminaries combined!

[One Bad Pig]

If you allege someone to have done something but cannot provide specific evidence to support your claim then you are guilty of bearing false witness. You and Pig have accused me of being a poorly grounded Christian. Please be specific in your allegation against me or apologize for your sin.

Me, myself, and

[Mikeenders]

I agree with the Pig. Gary is just trying to validate himself. He has an ego and does not possess humility so of course he's going to do this.

Well I don't know if you guys are using validate different that I would use it or doing psychoanalysis as to deep unknown intent but having clicked around on his blog, and through to a few other sites he hangs out at, I take him at his word that he is on a crusade. I have known few skeptic crusades where the people needed validation from theists. I do think that deep down on some level he does realize how weak some of his points are but I think he really could care less.

regardless I call fraud without apology anyone who gets into scholarly details and quotes one moment and then turns around and begs off having to read other scholarly research. You are either in or your out and if you try both you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Yes, when it comes to the abilities of brain-dead bodies, I as a physician am much more qualified that all the graduates of Christian seminaries combined!

Yes indeedy. No ego right here. None whatsoever. It's a good thing the physicians came along to tell us that dead people stay dead. Can you believe ancient people used to believe otherwise?

[Gary]

Me, myself, and

Which scholarly arguments have I dismissed, Pig? You guys continue to accuse me of ignoring scholarly consensus but other than Arimethea's empty tomb claim (which is held by a majority of scholars, but not an overwhelming majority), I have not disagreed with any overwhelming majority consensus position.

Your allegation is a strawman.

[Mikeenders]

Yes, when it comes to the abilities of brain-dead bodies, I as a physician am much more qualified that all the graduates of Christian seminaries combined!

You've convinced Nick of that but the closest that seems likely to me is perhaps you were one at some time, have lost several steps since and now may need some help of your own on that front.

[Gary]

Yes indeedy. No ego right here. None whatsoever. It's a good thing the physicians came along to tell us that dead people stay dead. Can you believe ancient people used to believe otherwise?

Your arrogance precludes you from using common sense. You are the stereotypical bookworm nerd who can produce remarkably complicated theories, but has no common sense about real life whatsoever.

[psstein]

I'm going to go with 18 minutes.

It has just as much evidence supporting it as the 18 month claim and the 2-3 year claim.

You're far beyond any area of your competency when you make such a claim. There's good evidence for the 18 month-2 year time frame.

You seem to think I care what you think. I care what scholars think. This is an area Nick (possibly far more than I am) and I are far better qualified in than you are.

[Gary]

"In those days Peter stood up among the believers[a] (together the crowd numbered about one hundred twenty persons)..." Acts 1:15

In this passage, the early Christians have gathered together and are choosing a new apostle to replace Judas. Notice how many Christians there were at this time: about one hundred twenty.

So let's review: If we add up the number of witnesses to the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus from the four Gospels and I Corinthians 15, this is how many Christians there were:

Mary Magdalene and let's say at least four other women: 5
The Eleven: 11
Cleopas and the other disciple on the Emmaus Road: 2
James: 1
The Five Hundred at once: 500

Total: 519

So Jesus appeared to 519 people in a superhero body with bright shining clothing, walked through locked doors, and then levitated into outer space in front of all of them...but only about 120 people continued on in the Faith. Doesn't look like Jesus' post-death appearances were very impressive or believable, does it?

[psstein]

Dear world of NT scholarship.

Gary has spoken. He has no credentials and no study whatsoever, but he knows better than you! Sit down and shut up!

Actually, Gary and some clown on Patheos.

I'm quaking in my boots, as is the entire religious studies department at my university. I bet Mike Licona is terrified as well.

[psstein]

"In those days Peter stood up among the believers[a] (together the crowd numbered about one hundred twenty persons)..." Acts 1:15

In this passage, the early Christians have gathered together and are choosing a new apostle to replace Judas. Notice how many Christians there were at this time: about one hundred twenty.

So let's review: If we add up the number of witnesses to the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus from the four Gospels and I Corinthians 15, this is how many Christians there were:

Mary Magdalene and let's say at least four other women: 5
The Eleven: 11
Cleopas and the other disciples on the Emmaus Road: 2
James: 1
The Five Hundred at once: 500

Total: 519

So Jesus appeared to 519 people in a superhero body with bright shining clothing, walked through locked doors, and then levitated into outer space in front of all of them...but only about 120 people continued on in the Faith. Doesn't look like Jesus' post-death appearances were very impressive or believable, does it?

You're doing what Ludemann did, then recanted because he realized he was wrong. Paul is not referring to Pentecost.

[tabibito]

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to [Peter], and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have [died]. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

All that would depend on when Paul received the information. He certainly passed on the information after he received it, and he wrote the letter after he passed the information on.

Who said it is a creed? A number of scholars believe it is creedAL - It might be a basis for a creed, it might be written in a style that makes it possible for use as a creedal statement, it might be part of a creed. What it is not, is a creed.

No internal evidence suggests that it is interpolated.

Now consider more questions about this chapter:

Nor would it necessarily be a reference to the scriptures we now have. Some have gone missing - and others, though extant, are not included in the Bibles of Protestantism, Rome, or Constantinople. It may be that they are included in the Bibles of other Orthodox Churches.

These would be the twelve. The original 11 and Judas' replacement, to whom Jesus also appeared. At the time of writing he was one of the twelve. At the time of the appearance he wasn't.

He couldn't have been resurrected if he hadn't died ... that should be self evident. Moreover, "Christ died for our sins" but he was raised for ...? the sake of several purposes, including that of conferring to opportunity to be purified.

Acts 9:3-9 states that Paul heard a voice. It does not state that he saw Christ. Moreover, Paul's companions saw nothing, though they did hear a voice. It would seem that the event has witness verification that eliminates some sort of "in-the-head" event.

No-one but Adam got tarred with Adam's sin. Old Testament records that the concept of generational punishment for sin is an affront to God. It is an established principle of scripture that each man is held accountable only for his own sins - and for the sins of no other.

indubitibly.

Atheists seem to like to read it that way - so do some churches. Given that σωμα (soma) is flesh, the πνευματικον σωμα (pneumatikon soma) spiritual body won't be just a spirit.

◾Though an important bit of history, this chapter may not be as compelling as believers think.

Worst case scenario - there were 120 or more. Of course, the 120 were addressed by Peter - "in those days" not "at that time": so there is no direct connection between that event and the 500 spoken of by Paul. And I've never heard anyone consider the 500 to be a particularly important issue.

[Mikeenders]

"In those days Peter stood up among the believers[a] (together the crowd numbered about one hundred twenty persons)..." Acts 1:15

In this passage, the early Christians have gathered together and are choosing a new apostle to replace Judas. Notice how many Christians there were at this time: about one hundred twenty.

Unbelievable...You just talked about someone not having any common sense and then you post this seeming to think that "stood up among the believers" means all believers in Israel as if all of them were gathered from all the areas of Israel to this one meeting. SO since the passage indicates it was those in the upper room in Jerusalem continuing in one accord you think all believers all over Israel moved to Jerusalem and were staying in the upper room? You have another definition of common sense you need to tell us about?

SMH

[tabibito]

Unbelievable...You just talked about someone not having any common sense and then you post this seeming to think that "stood up among the believers" means all believers in Israel as if all of them were gathered from all the areas of Israel to this one meeting. SMH

Yup - nothing in the Koine Greek leads naturally to the idea that "the disciples of Christ" numbered 120.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Actually, Gary and some clown on Patheos.

I'm quaking in my boots, as is the entire religious studies department at my university. I bet Mike Licona is terrified as well.

Oh Mike knows about the debate already. Don't think he's read it, but I'm sure I could tell him this and he'd just get a laugh out of it.