Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Apologiaphoenix]

The swoon theory has been dead for centuries at the hands of liberals. That Gary reaches for it again shows he is not familiar with scholarship.

[Christianbookworm]

Jesus would have to be a mutant with a healing factor for the swoon theory to work!

[Gary]

The soldier ran him through with a spear ... water and blood came out. That happens if a person is dead - blood solids partially separated from plasma. And it was worthy of comment - he hadn't been dead long enough for the process to be so far advanced.

IF the story is historical.

The fact that the story claims Jesus died within a few hours of having a couple of nails stuck in his extremities casts doubt on the historicity of the whole account. If we took you out and nailed you to a cross with a couple of nails, you would NOT die within a few hours. It would take DAYS for you to die. That is the whole point of crucifixion: to drag out the victim's death as long as possible, making him suffer for days. Jesus most probably died by crucifixion but we cannot rely on the four Gospels as accurate accounts of how that happened. These accounts were written decades after the event by anonymous sources. All the many, many discrepancies (Jesus' last words, who was at the cross, etc) make more sense when one accepts that the original story in Mark was mostly a fabrication written for theological purposes, not an historical account, and the discrepancies in the other Gospel accounts are simply newer embellishments to the tale.

This tall tale gets fishier and fishier the more one examines it.

[Apologiaphoenix]

JAMA did an article. Jesus was dead.
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....ticleid=403315

[Christianbookworm]

IF the story is historical.

The fact that the story claims Jesus died within a few hours of having a couple of nails stuck in his extremities casts doubt on the historicity of the whole account. If we took you out and nailed you to a cross with a couple of nails, you would NOT die within a few hours. It would take DAYS for you to die. That is the whole point of crucifixion: to drag out the victim's death as long as possible, making him suffer for days. Jesus most probably died by crucifixion but we cannot rely on the four Gospels as accurate accounts of how that happened. These accounts were written decades after the event by anonymous sources. All the many, many discrepancies (Jesus' last words, who was at the cross, etc) make more sense when one accepts that the original story in Mark was mostly a fabrication written for theological purposes, not an historical account, and the discrepancies in the other Gospel accounts are simply newer embellishments to the tale.

This tall tale gets fishier and fishier the more one examines it.

He didn't just get nails stuck in Him. He was flogged first, which could cause shock and death by itself.

[tabibito]

IF the story is historical.

The fact that the story claims Jesus died within a few hours of having a couple of nails stuck in his extremities casts doubt on the historicity of the whole account. If we took you out and nailed you to a cross with a couple of nails, you would NOT die within a few hours. It would take DAYS for you to die. That is the whole point of crucifixion: to drag out the victim's death as long as possible, making him suffer for days. Jesus most probably died by crucifixion but we cannot rely on the four Gospels as accurate accounts of how that happened. These accounts were written decades after the event by anonymous sources. All the many, many discrepancies (Jesus' last words, who was at the cross, etc) make more sense when one accepts that the original story in Mark was mostly a fabrication written for theological purposes, not an historical account, and the discrepancies in the other Gospel accounts are simply newer embellishments to the tale.

This tall tale gets fishier and fishier the more one examines it.

Yet again - you aren't dealing with all the factors. First - Jesus was flogged, and flogging of the type inflicted by the Romans results in significant blood loss. He was so weakened by that event that he couldn't carry the cross bar of his cross. In the ordinary course, a prisoner could do so.
You have Pilate expressing surprise that he had died so quickly despite the fact that he had been subjected to thirty nine lashes - which in itself is close to the survival limit.
He had an unexpectedly quick death: the Bible records the fact that it was unexpectedly quick - and you have people now saying that he couldn't have died in such a short time - ignoring, perhaps as wilfully as you yourself do - any relevant details that might have had an impact on the events and on their own "assessments".

[Gary]

The swoon theory has been dead for centuries at the hands of liberals. That Gary reaches for it again shows he is not familiar with scholarship.

I don't believe in the swoon theory. My point is that the Gospels say that Jesus died within just a few hours after having a couple of nails driven into his extremities. People don't die from crucifixion in a couple of hours unless their legs have been broken. The Bible says that Jesus leg's were not broken. Therefore the claim of the Gospels that Jesus died of nail wounds in just a few hours is highly questionable. It would be like someone today claiming that Joe the Carpenter drove a nail through his foot (accidently with a nail gun)...and DIED THREE HOURS LATER!

It's another preposterous claim to add to the dozens of preposterous claims in these four first century books; books written decades after the event, by anonymous writers, based on the stories of anonymous, superstitious, mostly uneducated, mostly peasant sources.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Then did he survive crucifixion?

[Christianbookworm]

You wanna volunteer to test the survivability for a few hours of being crucified? You could be doped up so it didn't even hurt! And if you got unstable, you'd be taken off immediately!

[psstein]

The swoon theory has been dead for centuries at the hands of liberals. That Gary reaches for it again shows he is not familiar with scholarship.

Literally nobody believes the swoon theory. The death on the cross is, with exception of two scholars, universally accepted.

This is really getting embarrassing for Gary.

Josephus recounts three crucified men being taken down from the cross. Despite the best medical care of the day, two of them died. Crucifixion was fatal even if the victim was removed from the cross. Jesus wasn't. I think the AMA did an examination of crucifixion a number of years ago, actually.

[tabibito]

Literally nobody believes the swoon theory. The death on the cross is, with exception of two scholars, universally accepted.

This is really getting embarrassing for Gary.

getting?
Lizard Smile 1.jpg

[Darth Ovious]

Jesus would have to be a mutant with a healing factor for the swoon theory to work!

So Wolverine was Jesus?

[Darth Ovious]

I don't believe in the swoon theory. My point is that the Gospels say that Jesus died within just a few hours after having a couple of nails driven into his extremities. People don't die from crucifixion in a couple of hours unless their legs have been broken. The Bible says that Jesus leg's were not broken. Therefore the claim of the Gospels that Jesus died of nail wounds in just a few hours is highly questionable. It would be like someone today claiming that Joe the Carpenter drove a nail through his foot (accidently with a nail gun)...and DIED THREE HOURS LATER!

It's another preposterous claim to add to the dozens of preposterous claims in these four first century books; books written decades after the event, by anonymous writers, based on the stories of anonymous, superstitious, mostly uneducated, mostly peasant sources.

I honestly think you need to see the Passion of the Christ just to see what happened to Jesus. Not many people like the film but I think it shows you just how wrong you are on this.

[Gary]

JAMA did an article. Jesus was dead.
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....ticleid=403315

I do NOT question that Jesus was crucified nor that he died.

I question the historicity of the STORY that surrounds his death.

[Gary]

He didn't just get nails stuck in Him. He was flogged first, which could cause shock and death by itself.

Assumption.

That is what this Christian tale consists of: a kernel of truth (a crucifixion), hearsay, and many, many assumptions.