Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[psstein]

Well, seeing as how to be a Christian, you have to actually believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, that's fine that you stand with every non-Christian scholar.

Although, to be honest, some of those non-Christian scholars have had a very hard time explaining the empty tomb.

[tabibito]

In the sense that a butterfly used to be a caterpillar?

Spot on.

Of unbelievers it is said that their worm does not die. And there is no telling whether in Koine Greek or Hebrew, the worm might be an earth worm or a larva.

[tabibito]

Luke 24:36, Jesus appears out of thin air.

John 20:26, "A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you!'"

Jesus could enter through a locked door?

Of course - the explanation comes after verse 20:

John 6:19-21

So when they had rowed about three or four miles,fn they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. _{20 21} Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.

Teleport? Of course, the confounding variable is that Jesus is fully God as well as fully man, so one does not know whether He could have pulled off those acts before the Resurrection or not also.

Yes - we do. Next time ....

post such things with a spoiler alert.

[tabibito]

While the scriptures can be interpreted to show that Jesus is fully God and fully man ... there is no way to determine from scripture alone that he was fully God and fully man between the time of his birth and eight days after his resurrection.

[Christianbookworm]

While the scriptures can be interpreted to show that Jesus is fully God and fully man ... there is no way to determine from scripture alone that he was fully God and fully man between the time of his birth and eight days after his resurrection.

That's a weird time span. What about between the incarnation and birth? Why eight days after the Resurrection?

[tabibito]

Apologies - I should have said within 8 days after the resurrection. That is - sometime between the evening of the day of (by Hebrew count, the day after) his resurrection,

Luk 24:50

And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. ₅₁ Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven.

and the day he made his next visit to the disciples.

Note - on the day that he was resurrected, he bid Mary to not cling to him. {stated reason: He had not yet ascended to the Father}

but on his next visit, Thomas was permitted to touch him.

[Gary]

Well, seeing as how to be a Christian, you have to actually believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, that's fine that you stand with every non-Christian scholar.

Although, to be honest, some of those non-Christian scholars have had a very hard time explaining the empty tomb.

Are you saying that one must believe in a bodily resurrection of Jesus to be a real Christian? There is a large segment of Christianity in this country that does not believe in a bodily resurrection, only a spiritual resurrection. Are you saying that these people aren't real Christians?

[Gary]

Well, seeing as how to be a Christian, you have to actually believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, that's fine that you stand with every non-Christian scholar.

Although, to be honest, some of those non-Christian scholars have had a very hard time explaining the empty tomb.

So are you and Nick willing to apologize to me for saying that my positions are outside of mainstream scholarship?

[psstein]

A) I'm not going to apologize to you at all, you are outside mainstream scholarship. Your claims throughout the thread have in many cases been against what mainstream scholars have found, starting from your insistence on the guards at the tomb and constant attempt to argue that Jesus wasn't buried. You also have consistently shown no knowledge of the ANE or the Old Testament, then loudly proclaimed that all commentaries and scholars are biased.

B) People are, of course, perfectly able to believe whatever they want. The earliest Christian belief is that of the bodily resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. The ancient preaching in Acts and Paul is very clear about it.

[Mikeenders]

So are you and Nick willing to apologize to me for saying that my positions are outside of mainstream scholarship?

Kids been wrong more times than he has fingers but he's in here begging for apologies which he refuses to give himself??

another evidence you need God to have a moral compass.

[Gary]

A) I'm not going to apologize to you at all, you are outside mainstream scholarship. Your claims throughout the thread have in many cases been against what mainstream scholars have found, starting from your insistence on the guards at the tomb and constant attempt to argue that Jesus wasn't buried. You also have consistently shown no knowledge of the ANE or the Old Testament, then loudly proclaimed that all commentaries and scholars are biased.

B) People are, of course, perfectly able to believe whatever they want. The earliest Christian belief is that of the bodily resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. The ancient preaching in Acts and Paul is very clear about it.

Ok, I'll accept your non-apology.

On the second point: You didn't answer the question: Can someone believe in a spiritual-only resurrection of Jesus, believing that his body remained dead, and still be a Christian? Someone like Bishop Spong of the Episcopal Church, for instance? My father attends a liberal Christian church, Disciples of Christ. He says that half the church council and pastors do not believe in a literal, bodily resurrection, believing that Jesus spirit rose again, not his body, and that this is a common position among liberal Christians. Are you saying that unless one believes in a literal, bodily resurrection of Jesus, one CANNOT be a true Christian?

[psstein]

You're using Spong as a source? I can't decide if that's funny or sad.

[tabibito]

Disciple A: Mary just said she spoke with Jesus' Ghost.
Disciple B: Quick - we'd better get to the tomb and see for ourselves.
Disciple A: Yeah - don't spare the horses.

[Mikeenders]

Ok, I'll accept your non-apology.
He says that half the church council and pastors do not believe in a literal, bodily resurrection , believing that Jesus spirit rose again, not his body,

I am a Christian not a believer in the deity of roman soldiers. I do not even believe at that time they had nails that could kill spirits (thereby needing them to be risen from the dead)

Are you saying that unless one believes in a literal, bodily resurrection of Jesus, one CANNOT be a true Christian?

I don;t know what he will say but if as Paul says the gospel is Christ died according to the scripture, buried according to the scripture and rose from the dead according to scripture and you go oops on the third you flopped the test and need to receive Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

[Darth Ovious]

Is that your opinion, or do you have a source?

My point is that if one believes that Jesus' original, human body was brought back to life wouldn't that in some sense involve the reanimation (the restoration of life) to the original tissues and organs? If you believe that Jesus' new, divine, resurrected body was not in any way related to the old body, then one can't really say that Jesus was "raised from the dead". His original body was still dead, but his spirit now inhabited a new, divine body.

It's the same body but with some new differences. Things can change you know.