Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

Here is Dr. JP Moreland. This gentleman claims that God would speak to him. He then claims that God withdrew his presence from him. Most non-evangelical, non-Pentecostal Christians in the world do not believe that God speaks to individuals today. Here is a clip of Dr. Moreland speaking of God "withdrawing" his presence from him:

[Adrift]

No, the first case of a man being cured of a "uterine cancer" was the mistake of James Bishop, a Christian blogger.

That you ran with, and then refused to believe you were wrong unless someone provided a direct citation from his book.

I believe that this situation highlights what happens when people get worked up over miracle claims: exaggeration upon embellishment upon exaggeration. And this process probably explains why the Resurrection story in John's late gospel is so detailed (embellished?) compared to Mark's first gospel.

What in the world are you talking about? You're the one who constantly exaggerates, and embellishes in this thread. I've called you out numerous times.

[Adrift]

Here is Dr. JP Moreland. This gentleman claims that God would speak to him. He then claims that God withdrew his presence from him. Most non-evangelical, non-Pentecostal Christians in the world do not believe that God speaks to individuals today. Here is a clip of Dr. Moreland speaking of God "withdrawing" his presence from him:

Is this in reply to my question, "Where in the story did Moreland state that the healing occurred at a Pentecostal healing service?"

Also, are you under the impression that all Evangelical Christians are Pentecostalists?

[Gary]

Is this in reply to my question, "Where in the story did Moreland state that the healing occurred at a Pentecostal healing service?"

Also, are you under the impression that all Evangelical Christians are Pentecostalists?

Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Baptists in North America do not have healing services. If you would prefer, I will use the term "charismatic healing service" but in my book Pentecostal and charismatic are one and the same.

[Adrift]

Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Baptists in North America do not have healing services.

You can't not help but flavor everything with your own imagination. Michael Patton never claims that Moreland was at a healing service. This is what he says,

"He said he once witnessed a guy who was missing an ear (there was just skin where the ear should be) and saw it grow back as people (including Moreland) prayed for him."

And you're wrong anyways, I've been to churches from different denominations throughout the US and overseas, and have witnessed Baptist church healing services on more than one occasion.

If you would prefer, I will use the term "charismatic healing service" but in my book Pentecostal and charismatic are one and the same.

They're not. And there's nothing in the account that suggests it was anything more than Christians praying with one another at an undisclosed location.

[Gary]

You can't not help but flavor everything with your own imagination. Michael Patton never claims that Moreland was at a healing service. This is what he says,

"He said he once witnessed a guy who was missing an ear (there was just skin where the ear should be) and saw it grow back as people (including Moreland) prayed for him."

And you're wrong anyways, I've been to churches from different denominations throughout the US and overseas, and have witnessed Baptist church healing services on more than one occasion.



They're not. And there's nothing in the account that suggests it was anything more than Christians praying with one another at an undisclosed location.

What denomination is Moreland? If he is a charismatic, and the people he was with are charismatic, and they all were praying for a man in their presence to be healed of a severed ear, then it was a charismatic healing service.

If you listen to the video, Moreland believes that God speaks to him and let's him know when he (Moreland) needs to apologize to someone or when he has done something wrong. How does Moreland know that the "voice" that he hears speaking to him, or "moving" him, or "leading" him to do such and such is that of God and not his own human conscience? He doesn't. He can't. He can only assume. And I believe that this is exactly what happens in miracle claims. The person who is experiencing the event believes so strongly that God healed him or performed some kind of miracle in his presence that his or her FEELINGS become the primary evidence as to the event's causation.

Your feelings can fool you, friends. Your feelings are not reliable.

[tabibito]

No, the first case of a man being cured of a "uterine cancer" was the mistake of James Bishop, a Christian blogger. I believe that this situation highlights what happens when people get worked up over miracle claims: exaggeration upon embellishment upon exaggeration. And this process probably explains why the Resurrection story in John's late gospel is so detailed (embellished?) compared to Mark's first gospel.

His mistake was posting it on his blog. Your mistake was posting it without first checking for the possibility of error and making a song and dance about how ludicrous it was. In light of your proclaimed skepticism being based on critical analysis - when an opposing viewpoint is advanced, to what do you attribute your eagerness to uncritically accept "evidence" that seems to support your case?

[Gary]

His mistake was posting it on his blog. Your mistake was posting it without first checking for the possibility of error and making a song and dance about how ludicrous it was. In light of your proclaimed skepticism being based on critical analysis - when an opposing viewpoint is advanced, to what do you attribute your eagerness to uncritically accept "evidence" that seems to support your case?

I qualified my statement. I did not say that Keener said it, I said "Did Keener say...".

Yes, I should have waited for Bishop to reply. I was wrong.

Everyone happy? :)

This conversation is going nowhere. I can't prove miracles do not happen, you guys cannot prove they do. It is a matter of personal opinion based on our individual assessment of what is more probable. You guys believe that a miracle is more probable than a rare fluke event. I believe that rare fluke events are more probable than miracles. We aren't going to get anywhere beating this dead horse any more beyond that point.

I'm done unless someone has a new point.

[One Bad Pig]

Here is Dr. JP Moreland. This gentleman claims that God would speak to him. He then claims that God withdrew his presence from him. Most non-evangelical, non-Pentecostal Christians in the world do not believe that God speaks to individuals today.

I'm pretty sure you're guessing wildly here.

Here is a clip of Dr. Moreland speaking of God "withdrawing" his presence from him:

So? Just because you've never felt God's presence doesn't mean that others can't. I certainly have. I don't use that to argue for my beliefs, but I have felt it nonetheless.

[tabibito]

Here is Dr. JP Moreland. This gentleman claims that God would speak to him. He then claims that God withdrew his presence from him. Most non-evangelical, non-Pentecostal Christians in the world do not believe that God speaks to individuals today.

I think at least a significant proportion would believe that God does not speak to individuals today, if not most. Any denomination under Calvinist or Lutheran influence would believe that to be the case, but I'm not sure about Rome - though I believe the official teaching is that the age of personal revelation has passed.

[Gary]

I'm pretty sure you're guessing wildly here.

So? Just because you've never felt God's presence doesn't mean that others can't. I certainly have. I don't use that to argue for my beliefs, but I have felt it nonetheless.

There is a difference between feeling God is with you, and claiming that He tells you/leads you/moves you to do this or to do that.

[tabibito]

There is a difference between feeling God is with you, and claiming that He tells you/leads you/moves you to do this or to do that.

Indeed so - Such as a person who is led to go on a journey, but he has not the means to do so. Yet by an amazing coincidence, he suddenly has the means.

[Gary]

I'm pretty sure you're guessing wildly here.

So? Just because you've never felt God's presence doesn't mean that others can't. I certainly have. I don't use that to argue for my beliefs, but I have felt it nonetheless.

When I was nine years old, I asked Jesus to come into my heart, forgive me of all my sins, and to be my Lord and Savior. I felt really good at the time. But that feeling faded by the time I was in my teens so I once again prayed to Jesus to save my soul, to be my Lord and Savior, and to give me his presence in my heart to know for sure that I was saved. I felt peace and comfort...for a while. But it would bother me when other evangelical Christians would give their testimonies and state that God would talk to them in their heart, or move them, or lead them to do such and such. I never heard Jesus speak to me or move me or lead me. I sometimes felt a presence, or something, but nothing more than that.

It really bothered me. I begged God to please let me feel the intensity of his presence as he seemed to do for so many other evangelical Christians. But I never felt him speaking or moving me so I eventually gave up and left the church in my mid twenties. There was either something wrong with me; a hidden sin that I was not aware of; or God just didn't want me. I was tired of the struggle to FEEL God.

I didn't come back to my Faith until I became a Lutheran in my thirties. One thing I really liked about Lutheranism is that one's spiritual status with God is not based on you "feeling" God. Lutherans, at least LCMS Lutherans, do not believe that God speaks to individuals today. God only speaks in one manner today: his Word, the Bible. My sense of security in my salvation no longer depended on my feeling saved; feeling that I had truly repented and sincerely prayed to be saved; I learned that the security of my salvation is based on God's promise of salvation and forgiveness which he gives freely in Holy Baptism and in the Holy Sacrament. Not only does God give you salvation and forgiveness, but he gifts you the faith to repent and to receive his gifts of salvation and forgiveness. Wow! God does everything! My salvation is based on objective acts of God, not my own subjective feelings or the sincerity of my act of "accepting him". Now anytime that I doubt my salvation I can look back to my baptism and say, GOD placed his stamp of ownership upon me in my baptism. There is no way for me to lose my salvation unless I outright reject Jesus as my Savior or by living in ongoing, willful sin.

I felt so at peace. It was great. I loved Lutheran Christianity.

[tabibito]

When I was nine years old, I asked Jesus to come into my heart, forgive me of all my sins, and to be my Lord and Savior. I felt really good at the time. But that feeling faded by the time I was in my teens so I once again prayed to Jesus to save my soul, to be my Lord and Savior, and to give me his presence in my heart to know for sure that I was saved. I felt peace and comfort...for a while. But it would bother me when other evangelical Christians would give their testimonies and state that God would talk to them in their heart, or move them, or lead them to do such and such. I never heard Jesus speak to me or move me or lead me.

One's response to the presence (real or imagined) of something that is considered desirable - that response being excitement or perhaps love in one form or another, for example - can readily be mistaken for a feeling that is induced by the object in question. Prosperity gospel preachers make a lot of mileage out of the fact.

I sometimes felt a presence, or something, but nothing more than that.

It really bothered me. I begged God to please let me feel the intensity of his presence as he seemed to do for so many other evangelical Christians. But I never felt him speaking or moving me so I eventually gave up and left the church in my mid twenties. There was either something wrong with me; a hidden sin that I was not aware of; or God just didn't want me. I was tired of the struggle to FEEL God.

You were misled by a false teaching, and it is one which affects even people who know it to be false. That is not to say that the feeling of love is wrong or inappropriate - just that it goes beyond anything that is expected of the person. And the deliberate quest for that feeling will inevitably be futile. The most likely outcome will be despondency.

I didn't come back to my Faith until I became a Lutheran in my thirties. One thing I really liked about Lutheranism is that one's spiritual status with God is not based on you "feeling" God.

So far so good.

Lutherans, at least LCMS Lutherans, do not believe that God speaks to individuals today. God only speaks in one manner today: his Word, the Bible.

And with that it gets derailed. Half of a statement taken independently of the context of the balance of the statement, and independently of the context of the balance of the Biblical teaching about the subject - assigned an arbitrary meaning, and then promoted to the status of doctrine.

My sense of security in my salvation no longer depended on my feeling saved; feeling that I had truly repented and sincerely prayed to be saved; I learned that the security of my salvation is based on God's promise of salvation and forgiveness which he gives freely in Holy Baptism and in the Holy Sacrament. Not only does God give you salvation and forgiveness, but he gifts you the faith to repent and to receive his gifts of salvation and forgiveness. Wow! God does everything!

No - he doesn't: he gives the person the wherewithal to do everything.

My salvation is based on objective acts of God, not my own subjective feelings or the sincerity of my act of "accepting him". Now anytime that I doubt my salvation I can look back to my baptism and say, GOD placed his stamp of ownership upon me in my baptism. There is no way for me to lose my salvation unless I outright reject Jesus as my Savior or by living in ongoing, willful sin.

Accepting him means that the person enters into a bondsman relationship with God as his lord. There are mutual obligations involved in that acceptance (or to use the more common Biblical word, receiving). Sitting back on one's tail and taking what has been offered doesn't even begin to cut it - even where there is no actual wrong doing.

I felt so at peace. It was great. I loved Lutheran Christianity.

Yup - it is hard not to have a soft spot for the Lutherans.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I think it's amazing how the goalposts have consistently been moved.

"Well there is no evidence of miracles!"

Miracle accounts are provided.

"Well you only accept miracles of your own religion."

It's shown we would accept miracle claims in other religions.

"Well why not put up some of Keener's miracles?"

Keener's miracles are put up.

"Well there's no point in really discussing it."

What a shock.