Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[William]

When I present Bible studies, the first stage of any session is devoted to studying the text and determining exactly what each sentence in the text says - no additions, no deletions, insofar as the text will allow - nothing that looks like a leading question.
What 1 Corinthians 15 says is - Jesus was raised from the dead: it is on this fact that our own hope for resurrection is based: if Jesus was not raised, our hope is in vain.
It does not say:
1/ that our resurrections will follow a similar pattern
2/ that our resurrections will follow a different pattern
3/ that Christ was raised in the flesh (although it does, if you know the implication of the word translated as raised - but that is not implication is not present in English.)
4/ that Christ was not raised in the flesh, but in some other form.

verses 35 thru 54.

again, when I was a christian, I believed as you suggest. But if someone, free of any preconceived notions, were to read this for themselves, I can see where some could take this as Paul saying, "Jesus was Resurrected..., but you guys ask how we can be resurrected? Don't you people know that there are spiritual bodies and physical bodies, and that physical bodies cant go into heaven, but that only spiritual bodies do?"

I'm not saying I see it that, but there are people who do, and reading all of 1 Cor 15, i can see why.

[William]

Definitely - thoroughly schooled in identifying moving goalposts by the familiarity of having the process so frequently imposed on us. You blokes are rank amateurs.

well, not as good as you guys, I confess.

[tabibito]

verses 35 thru 54.

again, when I was a christian, I believed as you suggest. But if someone, free of any preconceived notions, were to read this for themselves, I can see where some could take this as Paul saying, "Jesus was Resurrected..., but you guys ask how we can be resurrected? Don't you people know that there are spiritual bodies and physical bodies, and that physical bodies cant go into heaven, but that only spiritual bodies do?"

I'm not saying I see it that, but there are people who do, and reading all of 1 Cor 15, i can see why.

Which is why I am careful to ensure that Bible Study Students read the actual text before them without interpolation before they make assessments of the contents. Follow up (free) discussion examines the interplay with other texts and prior knowledge. 1 Corinthians 15 could lead just about anywhere with undisciplined reading.

[One Bad Pig]

you guys would be experts at recognizing this since you're well practiced in it.

Interesting. I don't recall ever being accused of having done so.

[tabibito]

Interesting. I don't recall ever being accused of having done so.

You'll have to learn to stop moving them back to where they were moved from.

[William]

So it's not something you commonly see in your practice. Again, what exactly is your specialization? You don't have to tell us if you don't want to, just curious.



Yeeeah-no, I don't think there's any conspiracy. Where do you get this stuff from? You believed this sort of malarkey when you called yourself a Christian, didn't you?

Anyways, apparently the news did cover it (bit of a fluff piece, if you ask me).

yeah, this is really interesting. If I had heard voices and was compelled to say words that just fell out of my mouth, I would find that convincing. It just didn't happen to me. I don't think they're lying, although they could be, I think more that it was a highly emotional situation that happened to very faithful people. They shocked him back to life still. I suppose that God can work through people and machines, but I also know that machines and people can work without God, and would assume that God is capable of working without them.

When I watch Alien documentaries that interview eyewitnesses who had worked at NASA and with the military, it also seems convincing... but I still cant seem to believe it.

I see why people do, I am just not, which I think also makes sense and is easy to understand.

I wonder if there are similar miracle stories for other religions and faiths?

I had an atheist friend to tried to kill himself. He put a .38 to his head and pulled the trigger. Went in at the temple on his left side and exited at his right side nearer the forehead. Nearly all of his frontal lobe was blown out of his head, shattering his skull into fragments at the forehead. His wife and mother were there. they called 911 and did what they could to slow the bleeding.

He lived. I was called by his brother after he arrived at the hospital by life flight. I hurried over there and several hours after surgery the the physician came out and told us that he was still alive but would likely pass any time. He didn't die. A day or so later they thought that he actually had a good chance at surviving but would likely be a different person from the trauma, and that was if he came out of the coma.

2 weeks later he was walking and talking. I visited his room every day during that time and saw the nurses and doctors in awe and wonder that he was not only alive, but seemed nearly perfectly well. Except for the wound at his head, anyone who spoke with him would not know that he was missing so much of his brain (nearly the whole of his frontal lobe).

I had freshly parted with religion at that time and before they released him and I asked if this experience had changed his mind about God. He said no.

No one can explain why he survived. Or even how he's doing so well now. So far the only side effect is that he's a little lazier than before and doesnt like to bathe. His memory has been unaffected, his personality is the same with the same dry and quick wit. He's still and avid reader and likes to play the guitar.

we had been close friends since middle school but the last several years prior to his attended suicide we hadnt spend as much time together but tried to meet up at least once a week to let our kids play at the park. He was lazy, cheated on his wife, was an atheist and tried to kill himself... and after attempted suicide he remains atheist.

did God save him or was it a fluke? Who knows. But he lived when he shouldnt have, while children die horrid deaths at the hands of cancers and other horrid diseases that only God could save them from - yet does not. If I could save someone but didnt, I'd be a jerk. If I could just trade places with one sick and dying child, I would. I'm not God so maybe that's not fair, but i know what love, mercy and compassion are, and in so many cases I see the absence of it.

maybe sometimes there are just wild things that happen.

it was an interesting video though.

[William]

Interesting. I don't recall ever being accused of having done so.

that is interesting. You guys are the first to accuse me of it, which is also interesting.

[JonathanL]

that is interesting. You guys are the first to accuse me of it, which is also interesting.

It's hardly our fault you've never debated with more observant people before.

[tabibito]

that is interesting. You guys are the first to accuse me of it, which is also interesting.

Find me one Calvinist who believes that faith healers in Pentecostal churches are truly casting out demons and healing people of cancer and the inability to walk, all with one little prayer and a push of his hand on their foreheads.

That is the post that led to the complaint about moving goalposts .... a suspicious person might think you guilty of a Freudian slip.

[tabibito]

did God save him or was it a fluke? Who knows. But he lived when he shouldnt have, while children die horrid deaths at the hands of cancers and other horrid diseases that only God could save them from - yet does not. If I could save someone but didnt, I'd be a jerk. If I could just trade places with one sick and dying child, I would. I'm not God so maybe that's not fair, but i know what love, mercy and compassion are, and in so many cases I see the absence of it.

maybe sometimes there are just wild things that happen.

it was an interesting video though.

The problem of evil - and even knowing the answer in part - it still rankles at times.
To oversimplify that part of the explanation (and for those who missed it, repeating and stressing oversimplify) which I do know: God does not act directly in the affairs of this world without permission. In part, the presence of believers adherent to him - disciples - is an avenue by which he is granted permission. The partial explanation doesn't make it easier to bear, but it does make the lack of action understandable.

And with that in mind - I'm not inclined to call your brother's survival and recovery a miracle ... just the luck of the draw.

[William]

It's hardly our fault you've never debated with more observant people before.

oh, was someone saying it was your fault, or do you often reply to people with, "It's not my fault?"

I may borrow that, if you don't mind, as I find that pretty funny. Are you by chance a writer, with that creativity?

[William]

That is the post that led to the complaint about moving goalposts .... a suspicious person might think you guilty of a Freudian slip.

you side with Freud? is that it, did he put you up to this?

[Gary]

It is not enough to deal with only a part of the story - you need to be able to account for all the elements.
Taking the story at face value, accepting that the report is true to the extent of the knowledge of the people involved:
Insofar as the actual revival is concerned - I agree with the assessment, and would accept that in all probability the patient was not dead in the absolute sense. However, that explanation fails to address the phenomenon of the voice telling the attending physician to try again. Of course there is a possible naturalistic explanation for that event too - but I won't buy it.

Could a supernatural being have whispered into the doctor's ear or spoken to him internally? Maybe. Can't be proven true or false.
Could the voice that the doctor heard have simply been his own internal thought processes? Maybe. Can't be proven true or false.

Which of the two above possible explanations is most probable in the history of human experience? Answer: It depends on each person personal opinion, but I will bet that most non-Christians in North America and Europe will attribute this "voice" to the doctor himself.

[Gary]

Fixed that for you.

Yes, you are correct, Pig. I cannot prove there are alternative, more probable explanations, I can only assert this as my opinion...and that of most educated people in North America and Europe.

[William]

The problem of evil - and even knowing the answer in part - it still rankles at times.
To oversimplify that part of the explanation (and for those who missed it, repeating and stressing oversimplify) which I do know: God does not act directly in the affairs of this world without permission. In part, the presence of believers adherent to him - disciples - is an avenue by which he is granted permission. The partial explanation doesn't make it easier to bear, but it does make the lack of action understandable.

And with that in mind - I'm not inclined to call your brother's survival and recovery a miracle ... just the luck of the draw.

he was a friend, not a brother, just as way of clarification.

I also think it was luck or chance.

I don't know if the problem of evil is really that overly simplified. I can see why it occurs, but i also now see the problems surrounding it when you take how the bible describes God as like a father and loving Shepard.

and I don't care to get into a full on discussion on the topic, but as it relates to the Fox News video, God saved a man with a defibrillator in this instance, and has saved others from other religions (if we believe other claims) but then doesnt save sick children with certain diseases... maybe God doesn't have the right medical equipment to work through yet? Maybe when the medications and medical equipment advance enough God will then choose to work through it and save a few suffering children. we can only hope and pray, I guess.