Originally posted by Gary
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Originally posted by tabibito View Postったく。 Seems that some people can't tell the difference between "all do not" and "not all do".
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http://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credi...der_0801039525
It states the exact sentence that I quoted above.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Postったく。 Seems that some people can't tell the difference between "all do not" and "not all do".
(click the pic to enlarge)
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Originally posted by Gary View Post"Pentecostal IN NATURE"
You need to learn to read. How many Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, EOC, or Episcopalian churches in the US and Europe practice healings and exorcisms?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Gary View PostNo, Tabby. You have missed the entire point of our discussion: We skeptics are not trying to convince Christians that this miracle or any other miracle did not happen. We are only trying to show you that there are always alternative explanations, and, that you cannot prove as absolute fact that this particular event was a miracle or that any other odd, rare event is a miracle. You can believe it, but you can't prove it.
How do you know this story is 100% accurate? How do you know that some of the details haven't been exaggerated, embellished or even fabricated? You don't. And that is our point. It is a story that has been passed around from one person to another, and when stories are passed around details can be changed.
Once again: Skeptics cannot prove that miracles do not happen, and, believers cannot prove that they do. Each one of us must evaluate the claim and determine for ourselves if there is a more naturalistic explanation of the facts. Believers have a much lower threshold for believing that a miracle has occurred, and we skeptics believe Christians have this low threshold due to the fact that they so very much want to believe a miracle has happened.
Originally posted by Keener"Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts, but it is a more compelling hypothesis in some cases than in others."
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidenceLast edited by tabibito; 08-23-2015, 05:25 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI have stated that it is possible - beyond all possible doubt - to know whether a claim of a supernatural occurrence is true. All it takes is for the person making the claim to be the one who performed the action. The phone conversation between the Christian and his atheist friend demonstrated the point - the Christian would know beyond doubt whether any subterfuge was involved. You hand waved the example away with a wholly irrelevant "analogy". Nor does that "analogy" address the secondary issue of why the atheist would have paid any heed to what he was told.
Even when other comments by Keener show that this does not mean "all accounts have or could have natural explanations" you insist that the statement means the latter.
The claim that every report of supernatural activity is ipso facto explicable by natural phenomena is itself an extraordinary claim - the evidence that you have provided in support of that claim doesn't even reach the standard of being ordinary.
The statement speaks for itself. "All" means 'every last one without any exceptions' last time I checked a dictionary.
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Originally posted by Gary View Post"Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts..."
The statement speaks for itself. "All" means 'every last one without any exceptions' last time I checked a dictionary.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostIt's inconceivable to me that someone with this sort of reading comprehension was able to obtain Board Certification. Please tell me where your practice is so that I might avoid it like the plague.
What does this statement say in simple English: A miracle or other divine act is not the only possible explanation for ALL/EVERY/EACH account in this book. In other words, there are alternative, natural explanations for each miracle claim. Please show me any statement in the introduction to Keener's book where he claims that the miracle claims recorded in his book are PROOF that miracles do occur, and not simply proof that many people the world over BELIEVE that they occur.
Your obvious hatred of me has clouded your reasoning and English language comprehension.Last edited by Gary; 08-23-2015, 07:35 PM.
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Supernatural causationIllness is not the only possible explanation behind all theaccountsabsenteeism.
And that sentence has two clauses, just to make sure there is no mistake.
"Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts, and it is a more compelling hypothesis in some cases than in others."
Way to go - cite half a sentence out of context (not only in relation to the body of the text, but also with regard to the very sentence in which it appears), assign it an arbitrary meaning - claim you have a point. You missed your calling - your skills are better employed in service as some cult's theologian.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSupernatural causationIllness is not the only possible explanation behind all theaccountsabsenteeism.
And that sentence has two clauses, just to make sure there is no mistake.
"Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts, and it is a more compelling hypothesis in some cases than in others."
Way to go - cite half a sentence out of context (not only in relation to the body of the text, but also with regard to the very sentence in which it appears), assign it an arbitrary meaning - claim you have a point. You missed your calling - your skills are better employed in service as some cult's theologian.
I don't see any contradiction to what I have said. Keener is not claiming that the miracle claims in his book are PROOF of miracles, only proof that many thousands of people, all over the world, BELIEVE that miracles have happened. Big difference.Last edited by Gary; 08-23-2015, 10:14 PM.
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[QUOTE=Gary;234045]I did quote the entire sentence originally. What does the second part say: That a supernatural explanation (a miracle) is a more compelling hypothesis (possible explanation) in some cases than in others.
I don't see any contradiction to what I have said. Keener is not claiming that the miracle claims in his book are PROOF of miracles, only proof that many thousands of people, all over the world, BELIEVE that miracles have happened. Big difference.[/QUOT
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSupernatural causationIllness is not the only possible explanation behind all theaccountsabsenteeism.
And that sentence has two clauses, just to make sure there is no mistake.
"Supernatural causation is not the only possible explanation behind all the accounts, and it is a more compelling hypothesis in some cases than in others."
Way to go - cite half a sentence out of context (not only in relation to the body of the text, but also with regard to the very sentence in which it appears), assign it an arbitrary meaning - claim you have a point. You missed your calling - your skills are better employed in service as some cult's theologian.
Craig Blomberg, Ph.D.
Distinguished Professor of New Testament
Denver Seminary
January 2012
Copied from: http://www.denverseminary.edu/articl...ment-accounts/one level-headed Calvinist on TW who will agree with me that this is all a load of horse sh....horse nonsense?Last edited by Gary; 08-24-2015, 12:52 AM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostBut the reader is rewarded with far more than an articulation and defense of these two theses.
I'll buy "more probable" - no question about it.
anyone who makes such a claim today can do so only by overlooking the experiences of more than 200,000,000 people on our planet! This number comes from a Pew Forum, ten-country survey of Pentecostal and charismatic church experience undertaken in 2006, and extrapolations based on it.Most of them are healings that include not a few resurrections from the dead. Keener discusses at length the stringent criteria he employed to eliminate numerous other possible accounts he could have included even though he believes they are most likely true. He describes his travels to dozens of countries in all major parts of the world, his interviews, and what he personally witnessed. He limits his second-hand accounts to testimonies from people of the highest integrity and character, many of whom are longtime personal friends or acquaintances. After surveying a wide variety of alleged, well documented miracles (especially healings) throughout church history; the bulk of his treatment proceeds, according to sections of the world, to describe those he has personally investigated.
Craig Blomberg, Ph.D.
Distinguished Professor of New Testament
Denver Seminary
January 2012
Copied from: http://www.denverseminary.edu/articl...ment-accounts/
Gary: Holy Miracles, Batman! Two hundred million miracles have happened in Pentecostal and charismatic churches in ten countries according to a Pew Forum but the Virgin Mary, with the assistance of her son, Jesus, has only accomplished SIXTY-SIX miracles among the millions of very devout, faithful, sincere Christians who have dragged their disease-riddled bodies to Lourdes every year, for over 100 years, to be healed. There is only one conclusion: Jesus hates Catholics and loves those charismatics!
I've heard one story of a person being raised from the dead - and not in a backwater Chinese district, but in a reasonably civilised city. I have also heard a story about a man who was scheduled for surgery on the following day and who was found to be healed come morning. Now - I feel reasonably assured that the people who told me these stories genuinely believed them. I also find them normally level headed and trustworthy. That doesn't mean I believe the stories, but it does mean I will suspend disbelief pending further information - though I am not pursuing an investigation.
Good grief folks. I can understand the charismatics and even Catholics and EOC on this site falling for this nonsense, but isn't there at least one level-headed Calvinist on TW who will agree with me that this is all a load of horse sh....horse nonsense?Last edited by tabibito; 08-24-2015, 03:22 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Gary View PostI did quote the entire sentence originally. What does the second part say: That a supernatural explanation (a miracle) is a more compelling hypothesis (possible explanation) in some cases than in others.
I don't see any contradiction to what I have said. Keener is not claiming that the miracle claims in his book are PROOF of miracles, only proof that many thousands of people, all over the world, BELIEVE that miracles have happened. Big difference.
So - now that we have discussed the contents of a book that we neither one have read enough of to make informed comment -
perhaps you could address the matter of the Christian's remarks to his atheist friend during a phone call. Specifically addressing the issue that the Christian knows that nothing was faked, and the Atheist's compliance with the Christian's advice.Last edited by tabibito; 08-24-2015, 03:32 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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