Comment Thread for The Resurrection of Jesus - Apologiaphoenix vs Gary

[Gary]

I don't care about your dumb blog. You're the one who looks ridiculous for having jumped to wrong conclusions.

For anyone who may be interested, the reference is on page 298 of Volume 1 under Part 3: Miracle Accounts beyond Antiquity, section 8. Examples From Asia, title heading Healings and China, subtitle heading Examples.

I just tried to look at page 298 on the Amazon "Look inside me" teaser. It didn't allow me to look at page 298 but it did allow me to look at the first page of that particular chapter dealing with Asia. The opening lines are quotes from Chinese Christians. One of them says that the churches in Asia are mostly Pentecostal in nature, "which would be very similar to the early Christian Church" (I'm sure Lutherans, the RCC, and the EOC would dispute that claim) with exorcisms, speaking in tongues, and healings. One source states that "90% of the converts to Christianity in China are due to miracle cures".

Isn't it odd that Jesus and the Virgin Mary are healing thousands upon thousands of people in China, all of them "confirmed by medical experts", but Jesus and Mary have only healed SIXTY-SIX people, by medical confirmation, in Lourdes France in the last over one hundred years!!!

Come on folks! Wake up! Either Jesus and Mary have a preference for the Chinese or the stories from China are the typical hysterical claims that Pentecostals make in this country about which most Protestants and even Catholics roll their eyes and snicker.

[JonathanL]

I just tried to look at page 298 on the Amazon "Look inside me" teaser. It didn't allow me to look at page 298 but it did allow me to look at the first page of that particular chapter dealing with Asia. The opening lines are quotes from Chinese Christians. One of them says that the churches in Asia are mostly Pentecostal in nature, "which would be very similar to the early Christian Church" (I'm sure Lutherans, the RCC, and the EOC would dispute that claim) with exorcisms, speaking in tongues, and healings. One source states that "90% of the converts to Christianity in China are due to miracle cures".

Isn't it odd that Jesus and the Virgin Mary are healing thousands upon thousands of people in China, all of them "confirmed by medical experts", but Jesus and Mary have only healed SIXTY-SIX people, by medical confirmation, in Lourdes France in the last over one hundred years!!!

Come on folks! Wake up! Either Jesus and Mary have a preference for the Chinese or the stories from China are the typical hysterical claims that Pentecostals make in this country about which most Protestants and even Catholics roll their eyes and snicker.

I don't know why this should be such a big surprise. It doesn't strike me as weird at all that God would work far more miracles in places like China where most Christians are actually serious about their faith, as opposed to the Western world, where Christianity for the most part seems to be characterized by it's "lukewarmness".

[Gary]

You keep raising issues arising from a book that you have not read whilst ignoring issues arising from matters that have been raised in the thread.
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In the story about the Atheist and the Christian that I brought up, you came up with an "analogy" that doesn't match the particulars of the story. The "analogy" is of course easily countered - but in no way addresses the original story so it can't be used to explain any part of the events described in that story. Nor can it be used to address any of the issues arising. Instead of making any real attempt to deal with those, you bring up irrelevant matters concerning a book itself that you haven't read, flawed potted history, ad hominems, strawmen - anything that might serve to divert attention from weaknesses in your own philosophy.

I can't address anything in the miracles book that you keep bringing up because I haven't read it - and there would be no point in discussing any issues you raise concerning the book even if I had, because you haven't read it either.

So far, the sum of your contribution on this thread has been little more than second hand criticisms and second hand opinions.

As for your post #1668 - an ad hominem attack attempting to discredit the author - despite the veil of wording it as a query.

But I do thank you for bringing up the book - in the first place, the relevant section doesn't explicitly refer to the gender of the person who is said to have had uterine cancer.
In the second, and more importantly, the point that I was working on - that it is very difficult to overcome the conclusions based on personal experience with philosophy - is quite thoroughly underscored by the surrounding context.

Why post your question on the thread instead of pasting "THIS link" (click) from your quote directly into Google? The answer would have been immediately available and you would not have subjected yourself to unnecessary embarrasment.
That section of Keener's Book should considered be a must read - it demonstrates why people steeped in "superstition" would abandon their long held traditional religions in favour of an upstart competing religion, without any reference to honour societies. And it further demonstrates what is possible when people take their theology directly from the Bible and apply its actual teachings without being thrown into doubt by exposure to contaminated doctrines.
I'm not taking the reports outlined in that section of the text as necessarily true or without exaggeration, but, from close perusal the Biblical record itself, those reports do tend to match what is to be expected.

I tried to look at the link but it wouldn't let me for some reason. However, I am going to take your word and that of Adrift and remove the post from my blog.

However, I hope you will read Keneer's forward in the book where he specifically states that there are alternatives explanations for "all" the claims in his book.

[Gary]

I don't know why this should be such a big surprise. It doesn't strike me as weird at all that God would work far more miracles in places like China where most Christians are actually serious about their faith, as opposed to the Western world, where Christianity for the most part seems to be characterized by it's "lukewarmness".

You might be right, but isn't it also possible that the reason there are more miracle claims in rural China is that the culture of the people is already predisposed to the existence of the supernatural, ghosts, etc.? Keneer even states this in the forward to the chapter on Asia.

I'm going to dinner with the family. Back tomorrow. (I know you are all so happy about that! :) )

[JonathanL]

You might be right

I'll accept your concession of defeat with as much grace as I can muster.

[tabibito]

I don't know why this should be such a big surprise. It doesn't strike me as weird at all that God would work far more miracles in places like China where most Christians are actually serious about their faith, as opposed to the Western world, where Christianity for the most part seems to be characterized by it's "lukewarmness".

Ah yes - "lukewarmness" does deserve a special mention. For all that it is classed under the heading of contaminated theology, it is (at least) close to the top of the list, being promoted as a virtue. (along with gaining "mere" knowledge of what the scriptures actually say being unseemly).

I'll accept your concession of defeat with as much grace as I can muster.

And given the amount of grace demonstrated, I can only assume that by "muster" you mean "rustle" ...

[tabibito]

You might be right, but isn't it also possible that the reason there are more miracle claims in rural China is that the culture of the people is already predisposed to the existence of the supernatural, ghosts, etc.? Keneer even states this in the forward to the chapter on Asia.

I'm going to dinner with the family. Back tomorrow. (I know you are all so happy about that! :) )

Which leaves you the task of explaining away the problem that I raised earlier in the thread. Why would people abandon a traditional "superstition" to embrace a competing upstart "superstition" - which can be demonstrated to involve no use of the sword - unless the competing "superstition" had some evidence supporting a claim of superiority?

[Gary]

Which leaves you the task of explaining away the problem that I raised earlier in the thread. Why would people abandon a traditional "superstition" to embrace a competing upstart "superstition" - which can be demonstrated to involve no use of the sword - unless the competing "superstition" had some evidence supporting a claim of superiority?

[tabibito]

With that, I think you have successfully stated our case.

[Adrift]

The opening lines are quotes from Chinese Christians. One of them says that the churches in Asia are mostly Pentecostal in nature,

Dang, you're about as bad at reading as you are researching. Nowhere in the opening paragraphs does anyone say that the churches in Asia are mostly Pentecostal.

"which would be very similar to the early Christian Church" (I'm sure Lutherans, the RCC, and the EOC would dispute that claim) with exorcisms, speaking in tongues, and healings. One source states that "90% of the converts to Christianity in China are due to miracle cures".

Why are you putting quotation marks around your paraphrases? The literal quotes are,

Source: Miracles by Craig S. Keener, Baker Books, Nov 1, 2011, pg. 264

From the perspective of church history, it is true that Pentecostal Christianity within Latin America, Africa, and Asia resembles the primitive Christian Church as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. Similarities are the urban character of their congregations, exorcism, healings, . . . and so forth. - Sung-Gun Kim

All Christian churches in China practice some form of healing, including Three-Self churches. In fact, according to some surveys, 90% of new believers cite healing as a reason for their conversion. This is especially true in the countryside where medical facilities are often inadequate or non-existant. - Edmond Tang

© Copyright Original Source

[Adrift]

Gary, you've been told a few times now that on this web forum, copy and pasting text without citing sources is against the forum's rules. You didn't even bother to remove the cite numbers from the Wikipedia page you copy/pasted.

[Gary]

Dang, you're about as bad at reading as you are researching. Nowhere in the opening paragraphs does anyone say that the churches in Asia are mostly Pentecostal.



Why are you putting quotation marks around your paraphrases? The literal quotes are,

Source: Miracles by Craig S. Keener, Baker Books, Nov 1, 2011, pg. 264

From the perspective of church history, it is true that Pentecostal Christianity within Latin America, Africa, and Asia resembles the primitive Christian Church as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. Similarities are the urban character of their congregations, exorcism, healings, . . . and so forth. - Sung-Gun Kim

All Christian churches in China practice some form of healing, including Three-Self churches. In fact, according to some surveys, 90% of new believers cite healing as a reason for their conversion. This is especially true in the countryside where medical facilities are often inadequate or non-existant. - Edmond Tang

© Copyright Original Source

"Pentecostal IN NATURE"

You need to learn to read. How many Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, EOC, or Episcopalian churches in the US and Europe practice healings and exorcisms?

[Gary]

Dear Christians of Theology Web:

I know this has been a painful experience for some of you, but I believe we have made great strides in coming to an understanding of the true similarities and differences between our views. Where are we at this point:

1. We have agreed that there are alternative explanations to the early Christian belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. We disagree as to which explanation best explains the evidence, but both sides acknowledge that skeptics cannot state as fact that the bodily Resurrection of Jesus did not happen, and Christians cannot state that the evidence proves the Resurrection is historical fact. The Resurrection remains an alleged historical event.

2. Some Christians on this thread have used Craig Keneer's book on miracles as evidence that miracles do occur. However, Keneer himself states in the forward to his book that ALL the miracle cases in his book have alternative explanations. Therefore Keneer is not asserting that he can prove miracles have happened, nor is he asserting that miracles today prove the historicity of the miracle claims in the Bible. He is simply stating that scholars and the public should give more weight to the PROBABILITY of miracles than they currently do.

So where does that leave us: It leaves us each with the task of calculating the probability of every odd, rare event that we personally encounter or that we read about, as to whether its cause was an "extra-natural" explanation, as Keneer prefers to describe it, or, a naturalistic explanation. There is no right or wrong answer, folks. Determining probability is a personal choice.

It has been an enjoyable experience, for me at least, discussing this issue with you.

[tabibito]

ったく。 Seems that some people can't tell the difference between "all do not" and "not all do".
(click the pic to enlarge)
Keener - Miracles.jpg

SEPPA

[Adrift]

"Pentecostal IN NATURE"

You need to learn to read. How many Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, EOC, or Episcopalian churches in the US and Europe practice healings and exorcisms?

Healing is not a Pentecostal in nature practice. Its a universally Christian practice. If any of the churches you just mentioned practice prayer with the expectation of healing, they practice healing, and all of them do. Pg. 273 and 274 mention healings in Anglican churches in Malaysia and Singapore, Baptist churches in Myanmar, Cambodia, and India (275-277) Mennonite churches in Cambodia (276), Presbyterian churches in India (277), Catholic churches in India (278), Lutheran churches and missionaries in China and Japan (including raising a man from the dead pg. 566 and visions of Jesus 879), and this is just a smattering of examples in East Asia, never mind the copious other examples he examines in the Americas, the European continent, Africa, the Middle East, Australia and elsewhere.

I suggest you ask our resident Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, or any other Christian on this forum if they believe in the power of prayer and of divine healing. I think you'll be surprised by the answer.