Commentary thread for "You might be a libertarian if�"

[Darth Xena]

Decent definition from urban dictionary:

anarcho-libertarianism
A libertarian who views the abolition of the state as necessary for a free society. ....Libertarians come in all sorts of varieties. Some see the state as necessary for liberty and others see it as a direct violation. Followers of anarcho-libertarianism think the state must be dissolved as part of the process towards freedom.

[Truthseeker]

I just thought anarchists don't want any structured society at all.

I think Darth Xena does want a structured society, whatever that means. At least the structure of Christian churches and their charitable endeavors. Non-church charities, too.

Just a "everyone for himself" thing.

But there are benefits from being good friends or neighbors. We may have a Christian anarchist society in which everyone strives to uphold the "love your neighbor as yourself" commandment (a form of the NAP can be derived from the commandment).

[Darth Xena]

I think Darth Xena does want a structured society, whatever that means. At least the structure of Christian churches and their charitable endeavors. Non-church charities, too.

Structure is unavoidable. The minute you enter into relations with another person, it is structure. But it isn't the state. All I believe is no mandatory rulers.

But there are benefits from being good friends or neighbors. We may have a Christian anarchist society in which everyone strives to uphold the "love your neighbor as yourself" commandment (a form of the NAP can be derived from the commandment).

A Christian anarchist society would be quite structured and orderly.

[Truthseeker]

Structure is unavoidable. The minute you enter into relations with another person, it is structure.

I still feel uncertain what Sparko mean by "structure." Your meaning also.

[Darth Xena]

I can't say what he means, but I mean any kind of organization that is more than "I do what I want when I want"

[Sparko]

I can't say what he means, but I mean any kind of organization that is more than "I do what I want when I want"

I meant a society with fair rules and regulations, and some form of enforcement of the rules and protection of the citizens rights, in contrast with a society where anyone can do anything they want, take anything they want, the survival of the fittest and subjugation of the weak (Think "Mad Max" movies)

[Darth Xena]

Ahh argumentum mad maxum... Right up there with "but who will build the roads" and "move to Somalia"

That presumes we need a state that violently robs and usurps rights for our own good. I don't make that presumption. Nor do I presume perfection. An anarchist society could have all those things above. A *form* of one existed in Ireland for hundreds of years. But hey, whatever you need to do to justify the wrongful subjugation of and theft from your neighbors.

It is a rather complex subject that others may wish to tackle as my visits are drive by.

[Sparko]

Ahh argumentum mad maxum... Right up there with "but who will build the roads" and "move to Somalia"

"agumentum mad maxum" I love it. Mad Max didn't need no stinkin' roads! Just flat Australian desert.

That presumes we need a state that violently robs and usurps rights for our own good. I don't make that presumption. Nor do I presume perfection. An anarchist society could have all those things above. A *form* of one existed in Ireland for hundreds of years. But hey, whatever you need to do to justify the wrongful subjugation of and theft from your neighbors.

It is a rather complex subject that others may wish to tackle as my visits are drive by.

I just feel that libertarianism is a pipe dream. IF, and that is a big IF, everyone was honest and caring about their neighbors and wanted to contribute to society, it might work. But as human nature truly is, without a government and laws and police, the strong would overtake the weak. You really would end up with a Mad Max type society. Sure the state can take it too far, and become the subjugator themselves and control the people for it's own warped needs. You need something in between, balancing government and personal freedoms. I think overall, the US government is pretty close to that. A bit on the controlling side perhaps. But closer than any other governments out there.

[Bill the Cat]

That presumes we need a state that violently robs and usurps rights for our own good.

People do a fine job of that on their own without the state.

[Darth Xena]

"I just feel that libertarianism is a pipe dream. IF, and that is a big IF, everyone was honest and caring about their neighbors and wanted to contribute to society, it might work. But as human nature truly is, without a government and laws and police, the strong would overtake the weak. You really would end up with a Mad Max type society. Sure the state can take it too far, and become the subjugator themselves and control the people for it's own warped needs. You need something in between, balancing government and personal freedoms. I think overall, the US government is pretty close to that. A bit on the controlling side perhaps. But closer than any other governments out there.

If I had more time to explore this it would be fun, but I submit it is a bit Stockholmish. There are a ton of unproven assumptions.... and a disregard for rights, or a treating of rights as a nice thing IF we can honour them and too bad, so sad if we can't. If you do not have the right to seize the property of another, you cannot delegate that right to someone called "government." You also do not gain that right merely because you want to steal for a good purpose. Which is basically what you are saying in your argument for the state. And if you think the present US State is even close....crap, you haven't been paying attention. Now, if we had an ultra minimal state (none has ever successfully existed--- no state has EVER limited itself--- that is the pipe dream, not anarchy), this would be a different discussion.

And a correction in your statement. You are conflating libertarianism with anarchy. NAP-anarchists are libertarians, not all libertarians are NAP-anarchists. We are a subset. The majority of libertarians are minarchists who favour a small state. And if they could actually accomplish that, I would be happy, and I work with them to achieve that.

[Darth Xena]

People do a fine job of that on their own without the state.

And when they do, they are criminals and outlaws. When the state does it, it is "legitimate" and "law" and "just."

[Bill the Cat]

And when they do, they are criminals and outlaws. When the state does it, it is "legitimate" and "law" and "just."

But how do you stop them if they are stronger than you without a state to assist?

[Zymologist]

I think "state" should be a bad word.

So why don't you take your anarchy and get the state outta here!

[thewriteranon]

I think "state" should be a bad word.

So why don't you take your anarchy and get the state outta here!

I do whatever the state I want.

[Cow Poke]

I do whatever the state I want.

I'm tellin Mom!