Is ordination of women to be Pastors [Overseer/Bishop] orthodox?

[Truthseeker]

There are five positions of authority in the Bible

God over man
Government over the governed
Master over slave (yeah, some will have a field day with that one, but it's there)
Husband over wife
[[Jesus Christ]] over the Church

Suggested change of your post, within double brackets, shown above.

[Jesse]

For a little bit more evidence, here is what textual critic Helmut Koester has to say about Phoebe and others:

Source: History and Literature of Early Christianity

This short letter "To the Ephesians" permits an interesting glance into Paul's activities as an ecclesiastical politician. He did not devise church orders but settled individual questions in the context of fortifying personal relationships. The first few verses (Rom 16:1-2) constitute the oldest extant letter of recommendation for a Christian minister, namely, for the woman Phoebe, who was the "missionary" and "congregational president" of the church of Cenchreae; the traditional translations of her titles as "deaconess" and "helper" cannot be justified on linguistic grounds.

In the long list of greetings, a number of women are mentioned who were not personal friends of Paul in the Ephesian church but associates and coworkers, which is shown by the repeated references to their functions. The appearance of such a large number of women is undeniable evidence for the unrestricted participation of women in the various offices of Paul's churches. Striking is the reference to Junia, who is named as prominent among the apostles (16:7). Attempts have been made to read here instead the male name "Junias," in order to avoid the conclusion that Paul's churches also knew female apostles; this male name, however, is not attested anywhere else in antiquity. The mention of house churches and individual groups (16:5,15) points to the existence of several "congregations" within the church of Ephesus. The conclusion of the letter brings a short warning of false teachers, which echoes that of Philippians 3—also very unlikely to have been directed to the Roman church, whose situation and problems Paul did not know.

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[Cow Poke]

Suggested change of your post, within double brackets, shown above.

I'll actually go along with that -- Jesus over the Church as in "all the saints through all the ages", but pastors over local congregations as led by the Spirit.

[Cow Poke]

That is just a small piece of a larger picture though.

There's an awful lot of assumin' goin' on there.

[Cow Poke]

The ESV of the Bible does not have "pastor." What do you mean by that word?

Why ESV?

[Jesse]

There's an awful lot of assumin' goin' on there.

Possibly. I think if you take the evidence in totality though, it makes a pretty strong case for women being more than just helpers in the New Testament.

[Cow Poke]

Possibly. I think if you take the evidence in totality though, it makes a pretty strong case for women being more than just helpers in the New Testament.

I think women were more than just helpers in the New Testament. I just don't think they were the heads of local congregations.

[Jesse]

I think women were more than just helpers in the New Testament. I just don't think they were the heads of local congregations.

Indeed. And we are told by Paul what most of those where. The thing is, Paul uses the term of Deacon to describe Phoebe. It is the same word he uses for himself. So Rom 16:1-2 does seem to imply she was a minister of the church of Cenchreae.

[Cow Poke]

Indeed. And we are told by Paul what most of those where. The thing is, Paul uses the term of Deacon to describe Phoebe. It is the same word he uses for himself. So Rom 16:1-2 does seem to imply she was a minister of the church of Cenchreae.

I'm familiar with that claim - did some research on that way back in college. Can't remember exactly what I found, but I'll take another look at that. I noted, however, that you used the phrase "a minister" --- was that to avoid claiming she was the pastor, or bishop, or head of that Church?

[Jesse]

I'm familiar with that claim - did some research on that way back in college. Can't remember exactly what I found, but I'll take another look at that. I noted, however, that you used the phrase "a minister" --- was that to avoid claiming she was the pastor, or bishop, or head of that Church?

Oh no, not at all. I think it is a proper term for her role with the church. Elizabeth A. McCabe says the same thing I did, but more thoroughly:

Source: http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?ArticleId=830

Of all New Testament women, Phoebe might be the most hotly debated in terms of her role in the early church. She is described in Romans 16:1 as a diakonos, which is generally masked in English translations as “servant.” However, diakonos is the same word that Paul uses to describe his own ministry (1 Cor 3:5; 2 Cor. 3:6, 6:4, 11:23; Eph 3:7; Col 1:23, 25), but it is unlikely that this parallel could ever be gleaned from English translations alone.

What is more is that the title of Phoebe as a diakonos accounts for the “first recorded ‘deacon’ in the history of Christianity.” Phoebe is tied to a specific local church, the church at Cenchrea, which makes her appointment a local function. Furthermore, the combination of diakonos with ousa “points more to a recognized ministry” or a “position of responsibility within the congregation.” “Minister” would be an acceptable translation in this regard or perhaps more appropriately, “[kai] also a minister,”whereas “servant” would prove inadequate. If Paul were simply aiming to convey a sense of service to her local church, this “would have probably been expressed by use of ‘diakoneō’ (Rom 15:25) or ‘diakonia’ (1 Cor 16:15).”[2]

The alternate definition for diakonos, namely an “intermediary” or “courier,” is also appropriate here. Diakonos in this regard means “one who serves as an intermediary in a transaction.”[3] In terms of Phoebe, this distinction would classify her as the letter carrier to the book of Romans. In light of the fact that many letters did not reach their designated locations in antiquity, the appointment of a woman as the carrier of the book of Romans is noteworthy, particularly since Romans is arguably the most significant book in the New Testament.

© Copyright Original Source

I think if we are going to try to debate "Pastor" or "Minister", we would be debating semantics.

[Cow Poke]

I think if we are going to try to debate "Pastor" or "Minister", we would be debating semantics.

Well, kind of, but "minister" could be "children's minister" in our day --- so let's stick with "Overseer/Bishop" as in the thread title.

[Jesse]

Well, kind of, but "minister" could be "children's minister" in our day --- so let's stick with "Overseer/Bishop" as in the thread title.

True. But we are not talking about our day. I don't see where there would be much of a difference in the ANE over Minister, Overseer, or Bishop. If there were such a distinction between Minister and Overseer/Bishop in the ANE, I would like to see it.

[Cow Poke]

True. But we are not talking about our day.

Yeah, I know --- which is why I reverted to the thread title.

I don't see where there would be much of a difference in the ANE over Minister, Overseer, or Bishop. If there were such a distinction between Minister and Overseer/Bishop in the ANE, I would like to see it.

I don't have a clue! Haven't had a chance to look into this yet, and I think I posted earlier -- this is not the hill I want to die on.

It will probably be sometime tomorrow before I can look at this - but I will!

[Jesse]

Yeah, I know --- which is why I reverted to the thread title.



I don't have a clue! Haven't had a chance to look into this yet, and I think I posted earlier -- this is not the hill I want to die on.

It will probably be sometime tomorrow before I can look at this - but I will!

Oh no worries Cow Poke. I am not even saying I am right. It's just what I lean towards. I figured I would bring a little bit of proof on the side that says women could very well have been Overseer's/Bishop's in the early Church.

[37818]

The first place to affirm a Woman's Role in the beginning of the Church's Ministry is in the Book of Acts.

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. 13 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.

We should never be too Hasty to forget that women and of Course Blessed Mother Mary begin here by praying in one accord in the upper room near pentecost. This of course signifying the beginning of the Church. Men and Women alike praying over the start of the ministry of Jesus when the Holy Spirit comes.

This is not at issue. Women in ministry roles. Women have been prophets too.