Originally posted by tabibito
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This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.
The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.
The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."
The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.
The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.
The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."
The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.
Forum Rules: Here
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Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.
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I see you're still being stupid, BU. How could an invisible God communicate with us without using images? Clearly any form His communication takes makes Him visible after a fashion. It just so happens that His only begotten Son is His perfect image. The Son is the infinite made finite. The only possible bridge between the infinite and the finite. Ya heard?
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Originally posted by Bibleuser View PostOwn goal.
BUVeritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Bibleuser View Postan angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush
Exodus 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Of course it would be possible to twist away from the next two if it wasn't for the passage above.
Genesis 32: 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.7 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.8 29 And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that] thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Judges 13: 21But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he [was] an angel of the LORD. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. 23 But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these [things], nor would as at this time have told us [such things] as these.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostNot sure why you go to all this trouble, then don't bother to add that how Jesus uses εγω ειμι is not grammatically correct if he is using it in the same sense that Paul, Judas, and normal koine Greek used it. Jesus' usage rather implies that he is outside of time - in other words, God. That is why the Jews wanted to stone him. Any explanation of the passage has to take into account the Jews' response to it.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Darfius View PostI see you're still being stupid, BU. How could an invisible God communicate with us without using images? Clearly any form His communication takes makes Him visible after a fashion. It just so happens that His only begotten Son is His perfect image. The Son is the infinite made finite. The only possible bridge between the infinite and the finite. Ya heard?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostInquisitors: "Are you the son of God?" Jesus "I am." That one at least is grammatically correct as a simple answer to the question. Is there another passage where your claim can be verified? However, the LXX does note that the name of God (in Koine Greek) is ο ων - that is the name Moses instructed to use.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostJohn 8:58, if memory serves. Though I'll note that, even in your case, the powers that be adjudged blasphemy.
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
"I am since before Abraham was." or more literally "before Abraham came to be, I am"
Seems to me that it is a reasonably standard use of Koine grammar, though kind of clunky in English.
ελεγεν οτι εγω ειμι - He was saying "I am" or He was saying that I am Jesus wasn't making the claim though (John 9:9)
Do we have evidence showing that the claim "ego eimi" is necessarily a claim to be God? None whatever.Last edited by tabibito; 12-21-2017, 12:02 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostYup - that is borne out and explained when the Jews took Jesus before Pilate
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
"I am since before Abraham was." or more literally "before Abraham came to be, I am"
Seems to me that it is a reasonably standard use of Koine grammar, though kind of clunky in English.
ελεγεν οτι εγω ειμι - He was saying "I am" or He was saying that I am Jesus wasn't making the claim though (John 9:9)
Do we have evidence showing that the claim "ego eimi" is necessarily a claim to be God? None whatever.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThe reaction of his accusers is all the evidence we need. They charged Him with blaspheming.
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;
And it is easy enough to find examples of people who hold to a belief long after it has been repeatedly refuted - or even confuted.
Luke 22:70 ειπον δε παντες συ ουν ει ο υιος του θεου ο δε προς αυτους εφη υμεις λεγετε οτι εγω ειμι
but they said "are you not the son of God?" but he disclosed to them "you say that I am." 71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Bibleuser View PostColossians 1:15
. . .He is the image of the invisible God, . . .
1 Timothy 1:17
. . .invisible, the only God, . . .
He is or is not, but not both???
BU
Again, Jesus argued, ". . . That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. . . ." (John 5:23).Last edited by 37818; 12-21-2017, 09:05 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe claim to be God is not needed as the foundation for a charge of blasphemy: as here, Jesus makes no such claim.
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;
And it is easy enough to find examples of people who hold to a belief long after it has been repeatedly refuted - or even confuted.
Luke 22:70 ειπον δε παντες συ ουν ει ο υιος του θεου ο δε προς αυτους εφη υμεις λεγετε οτι εγω ειμι
but they said "are you not the son of God?" but he disclosed to them "you say that I am." 71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
The Jews unequivocally understood Jesus to be claiming to be God, and that's what prompted their reactions to his statements. Why do you persist in refusing to see that? I was under the impression you were a Trinitarian.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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I am trinitarian.
That doesn't mean that I am willing to accept a highly questionable argument in support of the doctrine.
Questionable interpretations used in support of any doctrine only undermine its credibility.
With regard to the trinity, there are plenty of solid arguments available.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI am trinitarian.
That doesn't mean that I am willing to accept a highly questionable argument in support of the doctrine.
Questionable interpretations used in support of any doctrine only undermine its credibility.
With regard to the trinity, there are plenty of solid arguments available.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Do we have evidence showing that the claim "ego eimi" is necessarily a claim to be God? None whatever.
". . . Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I AM [He], and [that] I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things. . . ." -- John 8:28.
". . . Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad. . . ." -- John 8:56 (Genesis 12:7, ". . . Jehovah appeared unto Abram, . . .").
". . . Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. . . ." -- John 8:58-59.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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