Christianity is a falling religion

[Cerebrum123]

As far as the Roman Church is concerned Mary is born without sin and worthy of worship as an intermediary between God and humanity as the 'Mother of God.' Yes, some Islamic scholars, and yes your citation of the Koran, include the problem of Mary for good reason, but I believe that Islam considers the Trinity itself to be polytheistic without Mary based on Koran scripture.

That doesn't make her a part of the Trinity, and thus Islam's view of the Trinity is still false.

Source: http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/trinity.htm

'The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers the like of whom had passed away before him . . . O people of the Book - stress not in your religion other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of a people who went astray before you.' (Surat al-Ma'ida, 75)

And again:
'O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, nor utter anything concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say 'Three'. Desist, it will be better for you. God is only One God. . . . The Messiah would never have scorned to be a slave of God.' (Surat al-Nisa, 171-2)

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Again, none of this actually supports Islam's ideas about what the Trinity entails, nor does it support your understanding of the Trinity. I will admit that you and Mohammed share a characteristic when it comes to knowledge of the Trinity, and that is ignorance of it.

[shunyadragon]

By definition, those who believe in one God and only one God are monotheists.

Monotheism: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monotheism

I notice that you cite a 'simple' definition for monotheism. The claim of monotheism is more complex than your simplistic view. As the Muslims and I believe the Trinity is polytheistic.

[shunyadragon]

That doesn't make her a part of the Trinity, and thus Islam's view of the Trinity is still false.

I believe it is obvious it is your view regardless, but nonetheless you have to take ALL the citations from the Koran in context.

Again, none of this actually supports Islam's ideas about what the Trinity entails, nor does it support your understanding of the Trinity. I will admit that you and Mohammed share a characteristic when it comes to knowledge of the Trinity, and that is ignorance of it.

Difference in the interpretation of religious doctrines and dogmas does not warrant insults of ignorance. I was raised in the Roman Church and studied for the preparation for Priesthood one year and I fully aware of all the materials and history of the belief in the Trinity.

[robrecht]

I notice that you cite a 'simple' definition for monotheism. The claim of monotheism is more complex than your simplistic view. As the Muslims and I believe the Trinity is polytheistic.

It is the commonly accepted definition of monotheism for English speaking people. It is a simple definition, unvarnished by those with a religious agenda.

[Cerebrum123]

I believe it is obvious it is your view regardless, but nonetheless you have to take ALL the citations from the Koran in context.

Difference in the interpretation of religious doctrines and dogmas does not warrant insults of ignorance. I was raised in the Roman Church and studied for the preparation for Priesthood one year and I fully aware of all the materials and history of the belief in the Trinity.

You demonstrate your ignorance. I only point it out. It's quite clear that you didn't understand the studies you underwent, or you had very bad/ignorant teachers. The Trinity finds it's roots in the OT, and intertestamental literature. Particularly in the descriptions of God's Wisdom, and in the Angel of the Lord. Both of these figures show a distinction between themselves and YHVW, yet make claims for themselves which are due only to God. The Son of Man in Daniel is also described as such. Jesus claimed two of these titles for Himself, thus identifying Himself as divine. He was also clearly distinct, yet still One with God. I'll probably see your hand waving response tomorrow.

[shunyadragon]

It is the commonly accepted definition of monotheism for English speaking people. It is a simple definition, unvarnished by those with a religious agenda.

Logically to claim one is a monotheist by 'faith' does not necessarily conclude that one is a monotheist. You have not adequately responded to the issue that likewise Muslims consider the Trinity polytheistic regardless of your simplistic black and white conclusion of this difference in interpretation of the nature of the Trinity.

[robrecht]

I believe it is obvious it is your view regardless, but nonetheless you have to take ALL the citations from the Koran in context.

Difference in the interpretation of religious doctrines and dogmas does not warrant insults of ignorance. I was raised in the Roman Church and studied for the preparation for Priesthood one year and I fully aware of all the materials and history of the belief in the Trinity.

No church council has ever defined the Trinity as Jesus, Mary, his mother, and God the Father. Muslims are right to reject this. Any Muslims who believe this is a Christian doctrine of the Trinity are misinformed.

[shunyadragon]

That doesn't make her a part of the Trinity, and thus Islam's view of the Trinity is still false.

Right or wrong you need to read the quote you cited did not conclude that Mary was a part of the Trinity. It said that both Jesus and Mary were considered Gods, which I responded giving the reasons why Muslims see this in the claimed station of Jesus Christ and Mary. The citations I gave specifically described the Trinity and how it was considered.

The conclusion: The Koran text doe not consider Mary a part of the Trinity.

Again, none of this actually supports Islam's ideas about what the Trinity entails, nor does it support your understanding of the Trinity. I will admit that you and Mohammed share a characteristic when it comes to knowledge of the Trinity, and that is ignorance of it.

I believe the difference is not what the Trinity entails, both Christians and Muslims agree that the Trinity represents the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The difference is whether this is monotheistic or polytheistic.

A difference in the interpretation of scripture, doctrine and dogma does not automatically translate to ignorance. It is simply an assertion you do not agree with the alternate interpretation.

[shunyadragon]

No church council has ever defined the Trinity as Jesus, Mary, his mother, and God the Father. Muslims are right to reject this. Any Muslims who believe this is a Christian doctrine of the Trinity are misinformed.

Cerebrum123 misread the Koran text he quoted. The text of the Koran, nor Islamic scholars, nor I ever considered Mary as a part of the Trinity.

[robrecht]

Cerebrum123 misread the Koran text he quoted. The text of the Koran, nor Islamic scholars, nor I ever considered Mary as a part of the Trinity.

"two gods beside Allah" sure sounds like a trinity of three gods, but if you say Islam defines the Christian Trinity differently than that, what definition do they use? Can you quote their definition? Does it come from the Qu'ran or from a different Islamic source?

[shunyadragon]

"two gods beside Allah" sure sounds like a trinity of three gods, but if you say Islam defines the Christian Trinity differently than that, what definition do they use? Can you quote their definition? Does it come from the Qu'ran or from a different Islamic source?

Does not make sense.

[robrecht]

Does not make sense.

What specifically does not make sense to you? Does Islam use the same definition of the Trinity as a specific church council or a particular Christian theologian? Do they have a different definition of monotheism other than the commonly accepted definition of monotheism?

[shunyadragon]

What specifically does not make sense to you? Does Islam use the same definition of the Trinity as a specific church council or a particular Christian theologian? Do they have a different definition of monotheism other than the commonly accepted definition of monotheism?

That question is a little clearer. The shared common part of the definition of the Trinity in Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith is that the Trinity consists three, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and not including Mary in Islam as Cerebrum123 misread the citation from the Koran. What is not included in the view of Islam and the Baha'i Faith is that the 'three' do not consist of 'distinct' persons as in traditional Christian Trinitarian belief. They are 'manifestations' of God, which is the common terminology in the Baha'i Faith describing the Messiahs as 'manifestations' of God's word, Revelation and attributes of God.

Yes, Islam considers the Christian view of the Trinity shirk, and clearly polytheism. This clearly is not the polite euphemism of just 'misinformed,' it is a heretical belief.

[robrecht]

That question is a little clearer. The shared common part of the definition of the Trinity in Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith is that the Trinity consists three, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and not including Mary in Islam as Cerebrum123 misread the citation from the Koran. What is not included in the view of Islam and the Baha'i Faith is that the 'three' do not consist of 'distinct' persons as in traditional Christian Trinitarian belief. They are 'manifestations' of God, which is the common terminology in the Baha'i Faith describing the Messiahs as 'manifestations' of God's word, Revelation and attributes of God.

Yes, Islam considers the Christian view of the Trinity shirk, and clearly polytheism. This clearly is not the polite euphemism of just 'misinformed,' it is a heretical belief.

That is a very incomplete 'definition' of the Trinity. You left out the monotheistic part about believing in one God. Anyone who thinks that is the definition of the Trinity as taught by the Christian churches is not well informed about Christian doctrine.

[Cerebrum123]

Right or wrong you need to read the quote you cited did not conclude that Mary was a part of the Trinity. It said that both Jesus and Mary were considered Gods, which I responded giving the reasons why Muslims see this in the claimed station of Jesus Christ and Mary. The citations I gave specifically described the Trinity and how it was considered.

The conclusion: The Koran text doe not consider Mary a part of the Trinity.

his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! S. 5:70-75

Mary is clearly being referenced as one of the "three", and God the Father is mentioned as the "third of the three". Both of these statements are incorrect, and your understanding of the Quran is also incorrect. This view is expressed in the earliest biography of Mohammed as well.

Source: The Life of Mohammed

"They argue that he is the third of three in that God says: We have done, We have commanded, We have created and We have decreed, and they say, If He were one He would have said I have done, I have created, and so on, but He is He and Jesus and Mary. Concerning all these assertions the Quran came down."

© Copyright Original Source

This is on pages 271-272 here. It was written by Ibn Ishaq, and translated by Alfred Guillaume. It's also in a book written as recently as 1996.

The (word) three is the predicate to an understood subject. If one accepts the Christian view that God exists in one nature (jauhar) with three divine persons, namely the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and (if one accept) the opinion that the person of the Father represents (God's) being (dhat), the person of the Son represents (his) knowledge ('ilm), and the person of the Holy Spirit represents (his) life (hayat), then one must supply the subject as follows: 'God is three(fold).' Otherwise, one must supply (the subject) thus: 'The gods are three.'

But, I'm guessing you'll just dismiss all of this as just more "misunderstanding".

I believe the difference is not what the Trinity entails, both Christians and Muslims agree that the Trinity represents the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The difference is whether this is monotheistic or polytheistic.

That agreement is not there. Only Muslims informed about Christianity know this, and sadly I find very few of these. Far more just regurgitate what the Quran says, and accept it for what it says.

A difference in the interpretation of scripture, doctrine and dogma does not automatically translate to ignorance. It is simply an assertion you do not agree with the alternate interpretation.

You are clearly ignorant of the basics of the doctrine's history, and it's roots in the OT. Which was written by Jews who you said are "pure monotheists". Since they are "pure monotheists", and the Trinity find it's best support in their writings specifically about God, then you can't say so dogmatically as you do that the Trinity is polytheism. Again, you demonstrate your ignorance on the topics at hand, I only point it out.

With all that, I think I'm done here.