The Decline of Mormonism

[seven7up]

Even Joseph Smith worshiped Joseph Smith. Remember this:

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

Typical for anti-Mormons to take the "boasting" of Joseph out of context, that Joseph was speaking to those in the crown who had just attacked Joseph; AND you ignore that he was mimicking Paul's "boasting" in the New Testament.

Anybody who knows anything about the teachings of Joseph Smith would know that Joseph Smith knew and taught that Jesus Christ is Deity, and Joseph taught that he was a mere human and admitted that was a sinful man. Joseph taught that he depends on the grace and sacrifice/atonement of Christ for salvation.

If you all think that to "honor" a human being is the same as worship, then you don't know much about worship. Even the Ten Commandments command to "honour thy father and thy mother". That does not mean to "worship" them.

All of you can feel free to claim that "Mormons worship Joseph Smith". Just keep in mind that as long as you do, nobody who actually understands our religion will take you seriously.


-7up


(Gordon B. Hinckley)

[Cow Poke]

Typical for anti-Mormons to take the "boasting" of Joseph out of context,

In the context of his life as a "It's All About Me" kind of guy - prancing around on a horse as a self made General, ruling over the Masons as a self made Grand Poobah, starting his very own bank, operating his very own hotel complete with a bar that sold drinks he preached against...

He was a con man, a glass looker, a womanizer and, most significantly, a false prophet.

Your very weak attempts to cast his boasting as anything other than what it was is less than amusing.

[Cow Poke]

If you all think that to "honor" a human being is the same as worship, then you don't know much about worship. Even the Ten Commandments command to "honour thy father and thy mother".

Yeah, lemme know when you sit in Church singing a hymn, "Praise to my Parents"

[Sparko]

Typical for anti-Mormons to take the "boasting" of Joseph out of context, that Joseph was speaking to those in the crown who had just attacked Joseph; AND you ignore that he was mimicking Paul's "boasting" in the New Testament.

Anybody who knows anything about the teachings of Joseph Smith would know that Joseph Smith knew and taught that Jesus Christ is Deity, and Joseph taught that he was a mere human and admitted that was a sinful man. Joseph taught that he depends on the grace and sacrifice/atonement of Christ for salvation.

If you all think that to "honor" a human being is the same as worship, then you don't know much about worship. Even the Ten Commandments command to "honour thy father and thy mother". That does not mean to "worship" them.

All of you can feel free to claim that "Mormons worship Joseph Smith". Just keep in mind that as long as you do, nobody who actually understands our religion will take you seriously.


-7up


(Gordon B. Hinckley)

funny I dont recall Paul boasting he did more than Jesus for the church. Or that the followers of Jesus ran away from him but none did from Paul. Paul never boasted like Smith.

in fact when Paul boasted he boasted about his weaknesses, and he used hyperbole. He never boasted he was greater than the other apostles or Jesus himself!

2 cor 11
16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21 To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

[rogue06]

funny I dont recall Paul boasting he did more than Jesus for the church. Or that the followers of Jesus ran away from him but none did from Paul. Paul never boasted like Smith.

in fact when Paul boasted he boasted about his weaknesses, and he used hyperbole. He never boasted he was greater than the other apostles or Jesus himself!

2 cor 11
16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21 To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

Probably the only thing that he did that could count as boasting was when he said he was every bit as much of an apostle as any of the others were. Nothing like the self-aggrandizing that Smith was known for.

[ke7ejx]

Oh yes, because Joseph NEVER exalted himself.... "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be God to you in His stead...and if you don't like it, you must lump it!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363).

[Cow Poke]

Oh yes, because Joseph NEVER exalted himself.... "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be God to you in His stead...and if you don't like it, you must lump it!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363).

He had is fingers crossed behind his back, so this doesn't count.

[ke7ejx]

He had is fingers crossed behind his back, so this doesn't count.

[ke7ejx]

Typical for anti-Mormons to take the "boasting" of Joseph out of context, that Joseph was speaking to those in the crown who had just attacked Joseph; AND you ignore that he was mimicking Paul's "boasting" in the New Testament.

Anybody who knows anything about the teachings of Joseph Smith would know that Joseph Smith knew and taught that Jesus Christ is Deity, and Joseph taught that he was a mere human and admitted that was a sinful man. Joseph taught that he depends on the grace and sacrifice/atonement of Christ for salvation.

If you all think that to "honor" a human being is the same as worship, then you don't know much about worship. Even the Ten Commandments command to "honour thy father and thy mother". That does not mean to "worship" them.

All of you can feel free to claim that "Mormons worship Joseph Smith". Just keep in mind that as long as you do, nobody who actually understands our religion will take you seriously.


-7up


(Gordon B. Hinckley)

Except I lived the religion. I know what is taught and I know what is believed. Joseph Smith is considered a god. Trying to say he isn't worshipped is a classic example of cognitive dissonance. I'm no anti, but I do know better than most what the doctrines teach. It broke my heart to learn it but in the end those doctrines are false and even heretical.

[Cerebrum123]

Oh yes, because Joseph NEVER exalted himself.... "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be God to you in His stead...and if you don't like it, you must lump it!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363).

See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh

[ke7ejx]

See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh

It's all about the context in which it is used. Joseph wasn't comparing himself to Moses.

[Cow Poke]

I wouldn't use this one against Joseph Smith, and for this reason....

In and of itself, no... but the overall context...

[Bill the Cat]

See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh

I think it's completely appropriate to use this quote against Joseph Smith. There's a rather large difference between:

"I have made you like God to Pharaoh"

and

"He will make me be God to you in His stead"

God Himself saying He will make Moses "LIKE God" (elohim means "one with strong authority") is not anywhere near Joseph Smith boasting "God will make me be God to you in his stead". Being Like God is not the same as being a God.

[seven7up]

Oh yes, because Joseph NEVER exalted himself.... "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be God to you in His stead...and if you don't like it, you must lump it!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.363).

Just another example of taking something out of context in order to distort the actual meaning. Typical anti-Mormon tactics. Anybody who knows the book of Exodus knows that when the text of the Old Testament calls Moses a "God", it does not mean that Moses was Deity in the flesh. The Lord said to Moses, In other words, as Aaron spoke, Moses could correct him if he said anything wrong, just as God could tell his prophet Moses what to say. Moses by the same token could tell Aaron what to say, and in a figurative way Moses was as God to Aaron.

So, when Joseph Smith says, Joseph Smith is paraphrasing the incident from Exodus where God told Moses He would give him Aaron for a spokesman.

Something anti-Mormons will never give you is the context. You have to be smart enough (or not be intellectually lazy), and go beyond what the anti-Mormon sound bite taken out of context says.

In his talk Joseph Smith said,indicating that he was exhausted from speaking. Therefore, as the text explains, Joseph compared himself to Moses, who was given Aaron for a spokesman.

Joseph Smith, using this Exodus expression, now introduced another church leader to the congregation and said, (HC 6:319-320).

The audience would, of course, have been disappointed hearing from a substitute speaker when they came to hear Joseph Smith. He had spoken for hours to an audience of several thousand the day before. In his weariness, Joseph then turned over the speaking assignment to an aide and said to the audience, (which was said in humor).

Anti-Mormons will never give the background information in order to see what is actually going on. They want to paint a false caricature of Joseph, rather than the truth.

-7up

[seven7up]

Except I lived the religion. I know what is taught and I know what is believed. Joseph Smith is considered a god.

In Mormonism, anybody who receives "eternal life" and becomes like God, is considered to be "a god". However, that doesn't mean that we worship anybody who receives eternal life.

Surely you have heard LDS explain our view of Paul's letter when he referred to, "gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father" (1 Cor. 8:5,6) and what David meant in Psalm 8:4,5 when he said that man is "a little lower than the gods" (KJV gives "lower than the angels" but the Hebrew word is "gods" . LDS have always said that, while even human beings (like Moses) or the judges of Israel who were given authority by God are called "gods", that does not mean we worship them.

I can give many examples in scripture, like "And to God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen" (D&C 76), but here is Boyd K. Packer explaining back in 1984:

"The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Eloheim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him. There is only one Christ, one Redeemer. We accept the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh." (Oct 1984 General Conference).



(Interestingly enough, anti-Mormons will criticize LDS for too limited a worship ... i.e. only praying/worshiping God the Father and not praying to the Son. Yet antis like you turn around and say we worship Joseph. Nonsense.)

Trying to say he isn't worshipped is a classic example of cognitive dissonance. I'm no anti, but I do know better than most what the doctrines teach. It broke my heart to learn it but in the end those doctrines are false and even heretical.

Show me exactly what in the LDS scriptures or practice that would lead you to believe that Joseph is worshiped.

I'm no anti, ...

Sure you are. It is you who suffers from cognative dissonance. You clearly and obviously just tried to take a quote by Joseph Smith entirely out of context, just like any other ant-Mormon. NOBODY who claims that "LDS worship Joseph Smith" is taken seriously. Period.

.... It broke my heart to learn it but in the end those doctrines are false and even heretical.

Sorry to hear that you "learned" such things. Perhaps you didn't know it when anti-Mormons were distorting the reality of what was actually going on. You just bought it without looking deeper.

-7up