Originally posted by Roy
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Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Forum Rules: Here
Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Forum Rules: Here
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Christ in Ancient Americas - A Compelling Evidence of the BOM's Authenticity
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"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by TimothyRB View PostMere assertions lacking supporting evidence relegates your statements and responses as arrogant ignorant opinion hit piece.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostNo, it's a classic Gish Gallop.
Originally posted by Dante View PostFalse. One of the main criticisms of the Book of Mormon is the extensive amount of egregious errors found in the Book of Mormon.
https://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/...-of-Mormon.pdfOriginally posted by TimothyRB View Post1. Statement and response to position one - exposing the Red Herring and Special Pleading:
In the introduction paragraph:
The Book of Mormon has always been a stumbling block for many evangelical Christians. Many attempts have given over to some interesting theories of how this text came about. One of the main criticisms is that there is no archaeological evidence to substantiate any people, person, place, or event recorded in the Book of Mormon text.
The response to this is:
The respondent provided a link to a paper written by Jon Gary Williams at Apologetics Press - titled THE BOOK OF MORMON: A BOOK OF MISTAKES, ERROR, AND FRAUD. It is regarding the textual criticism Evangelical Christians utilize in their attempt to diminish the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Granted, this is considered one of many main criticisms launched against the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. It is not the de facto criticism. Also, the introduction of the egregious errors argument is considered a Red Herring Logical Fallacy.
Red - Herring: Ignoratio elenchi
(also known as: beside the point, misdirection [form of], changing the subject, false emphasis, the Chewbacca defense, irrelevant conclusion, irrelevant thesis, clouding the issue, ignorance of refutation) Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.
This is common practice among those who may disagree with another person's position. By introducing another topic and argument, the attempt is made to focus more on the textual criticism argument of the Book of Mormon instead of focusing on the presenting argument itself.
One could perhaps say that Dante was unnecessarily snide with his remark, but any snideness in it was dwarfed by TimothyRB's tone in his responding post as if it was some kind of case study, e.g. referring to Dante as "the respondent" and "the individual".
I suppose it's similar to a Gish Gallop in that the result (intentionally or not) can be to make someone give up arguing out of frustration, but it's not really quantity of arguments so much as it's simply quantity of text.
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Originally posted by TimothyRB View Post[ATTACH=CONFIG]35578[/ATTACH]
ETA: I see others have already noticed the similarities to the notorious tactic used by the late Duane Gish. Then again it is pretty obvious.Attached FilesLast edited by rogue06; 03-10-2019, 06:14 AM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Fortunately I've enough patience to separate the wheat from the chaff, and that is a lot of chaff.The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThis Gish gallop is so chock full of blatant errors that even the most cursory of examinations would expose it is difficult to even know where to start.
ETA: I see others have already noticed the similarities to the notorious tactic used by the late Duane Gish. Then again it is pretty obvious.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Out of curiousity I tried using a word count tool to check how many words/characters I've used against his second attempt, and I've only used about 1824 words; 10,685 characters, in my rebuttals of both parts 1 & 2, combined.The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987
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Originally posted by Dante View PostOut of curiousity I tried using a word count tool to check how many words/characters I've used against his second attempt, and I've only used about 1824 words; 10,685 characters, in my rebuttals of both parts 1 & 2, combined.
You've done an excellent job rebutting him, but he just blogs on. He needs to do that on his own dime.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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There are two separate arguments contained in this faulty statement. First, is the presentist viewpoint, and the second is the conclusion of engaging in human sacrifices. Neither account provides any information regarding human sacrifices. That is an inference the respondent provides within the context of comparing the two accounts. Therefore, there is no need to address this. What will be addressed is the first part of the response to determine whether or not the comparison of the two accounts are reflective of the same event and person of that event.
In Pedro de Cieza de Leon's account, we read:
Things being in this state, the sun, shining very brightly, came forth from the island of Titicaca, in the great lake of the Collao, at which every one rejoiced1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWe are just against elephant hurls and blogging. This is a discussion site and the only way to have a real debate is to keep the posts concise and short. People can always move on to more points later.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWe are just against elephant hurls and blogging. This is a discussion site and the only way to have a real debate is to keep the posts concise and short. People can always move on to more points later.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYup. Just present what you think is your strongest piece of evidence (or two). We can go from there.
Or the non-existent gold plates.
Or the kinderhook scandal.
Or the Bank fraud.
If "Christ in ancient Americas" is his best defense of Mormonism.....The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostMaybe we can get to the burning in the bosom.
Or the non-existent gold plates.
Or the kinderhook scandal.
Or the Bank fraud.
If "Christ in ancient Americas" is his best defense of Mormonism.....
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
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