7up: Second, I would say that LDS views are often considered similar to a version of the Trinity, one that has been called "Social Trinitarianism".
There are two problems with your short post here Cow Poke.
1) First, the similarities to "Social Trinitarianism" and LDS has to do with the belief that these distinct persons are "one" with a "perichoresis" or an interpenetration of lives through spiritual communication which results in this deep kind of harmonious relationship between these different individuals.
Rather than addressing that, you just went off on a different topic, whereby you expressed that you believe that the Biblical text does not directly address what God the Father was doing or what he has done prior to the creation described in the book of Genesis.
2) Joseph Smith did not say that God the Father "evolved from a flesh and blood sinner". I have already explained this on this forum, but perhaps you missed it, so, I will explain again.
Joseph Smith wanted to preach about who and what God is. What kind of being is God? What is He like? If you were to see God, what would God look like? That is what Joseph Smith is getting at and he addressed it in the King Follet Sermon. He wanted to dispel the concepts of God which say that God is some kind of literally omnipresent substance which literally exists in the entirety of existence. He wanted to explain that God is not "wholly other" like modern Christianity teaches. So, near the beginning of the sermon, Joseph says:
"In the first place, I wish to go back to the beginning--to the Creation. That is the starting point if we are to be fully acquainted with the mind, the purposes, and the decrees of the great Elohim who sits in yonder heavens. We must have an understanding of God himself in the beginning. If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we start wrong, it is a hard matter to get right."
So, if we misunderstand God and God's relationship to the Creation from the beginning, then incorrect interpretations of scripture will follow after that. This is why in previous discussions I have stressed the the importance of rejecting Ex Nihilo creation (i.e. creation out of nothing), because so many erroneous conclusions come from that false premise.
"I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in his own heart what kind of a being God is. What kind of a being is God? Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, communed with him? Here is the question, perhaps, that will from this time forth occupy your attention. The apostle [John] says, "This is life eternal"--to know God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent... I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him. And if I can bring you to him, all persecutions against me will cease; you will know that I am his servant, for I speak as one having authority."
Joseph Smith claimed to have seen both God the Father AND Jesus Christ as distinct personal beings. He believed that he was chosen by God to reveal the true nature of God to the world, and was given authority to do so.
"God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another. "
Now, critics of the LDS church will just take the first sentence here out of context. They will say that Mormons believe that God was like one of us in every sense. That is not what Joseph Smith is saying. He explained here what he means. He means that God is a personal being with hands, feet, head, etc. We are created in the image of God. In the Garden of Eden, God literally was walking and talking with God, exactly as the History of the Old Testament describes it. Moses had a similar experience, when "The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend." (Exodus 33:11) Or when the elders of Israel saw God, "and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself."
Joseph Smith is expressing the exact same concept in this sermon. If you were to ask Moses or the elders of Israel, what kind of being does God look like, they would describe "the image and very form of a man."
The sermon given by Joseph Smith expresses the idea that God the Father, at some point in eternities past, lived in a human mortal body like we have (i.e. a man like us, and a man like Jesus Christ was a man), and then God the Father obtained a resurrected body in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained a resurrected body here on Earth.
"What did Jesus say? Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible."
Now, let's look for some context of the verse that Joseph Smith is referring to in John chapter 5, whereby the Jews accuse Jesus and Jesus responds by discussing the resurrection,
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, “Amen, Amen I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do; for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son and showeth Him all things that He Himself doeth; and He will show Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
Just a couple verses later, Jesus returns to the topic of resurrection,
24 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.
What does it mean to pass from death unto life in this verse? It means resurrection from the dead:
25 “Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself,
Joseph Smith was teaching that God the Father has life in Himself, meaning that He is a resurrected Being. When the prophet Joseph said that God is a man like us, he was saying that God the Father is a man like us in the same sense that Jesus Christ is a man like us. Again, this is why Joseph said:
"God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, ...
What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory. And so Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before."
As you can see, Joseph Smith was indicating that God the Father was a man in the same way that Jesus Christ was a man.
Jesus Christ has the exact nature and being as God the Father, but they have lives which are closely knit and a relationship/bond between them. Nevertheless, they are distinct beings from one another. They are not the same being, but instead Jesus, as a perfect Son, is the is the exact same kind of being, who is "one" with God the Father in the Biblical sense as described in John chapter 17. Furthermore, we see that one of Christ's missions on Earth was to show the world exactly what kind of Being God the Father is, in every sense,
"in these last days [God the Father] has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And [Jesus] who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
This is also what Jesus means when he says, "If you know Me, you will also know My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him." (John 14:7) He does not mean that Jesus and God the Father are the same person. He is saying that He is a perfect representation of the kind of being and nature of God the Father in every sense.
-7up
Originally posted by Cow Poke
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1) First, the similarities to "Social Trinitarianism" and LDS has to do with the belief that these distinct persons are "one" with a "perichoresis" or an interpenetration of lives through spiritual communication which results in this deep kind of harmonious relationship between these different individuals.
Rather than addressing that, you just went off on a different topic, whereby you expressed that you believe that the Biblical text does not directly address what God the Father was doing or what he has done prior to the creation described in the book of Genesis.
2) Joseph Smith did not say that God the Father "evolved from a flesh and blood sinner". I have already explained this on this forum, but perhaps you missed it, so, I will explain again.
Joseph Smith wanted to preach about who and what God is. What kind of being is God? What is He like? If you were to see God, what would God look like? That is what Joseph Smith is getting at and he addressed it in the King Follet Sermon. He wanted to dispel the concepts of God which say that God is some kind of literally omnipresent substance which literally exists in the entirety of existence. He wanted to explain that God is not "wholly other" like modern Christianity teaches. So, near the beginning of the sermon, Joseph says:
"In the first place, I wish to go back to the beginning--to the Creation. That is the starting point if we are to be fully acquainted with the mind, the purposes, and the decrees of the great Elohim who sits in yonder heavens. We must have an understanding of God himself in the beginning. If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we start wrong, it is a hard matter to get right."
So, if we misunderstand God and God's relationship to the Creation from the beginning, then incorrect interpretations of scripture will follow after that. This is why in previous discussions I have stressed the the importance of rejecting Ex Nihilo creation (i.e. creation out of nothing), because so many erroneous conclusions come from that false premise.
"I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in his own heart what kind of a being God is. What kind of a being is God? Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, communed with him? Here is the question, perhaps, that will from this time forth occupy your attention. The apostle [John] says, "This is life eternal"--to know God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent... I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him. And if I can bring you to him, all persecutions against me will cease; you will know that I am his servant, for I speak as one having authority."
Joseph Smith claimed to have seen both God the Father AND Jesus Christ as distinct personal beings. He believed that he was chosen by God to reveal the true nature of God to the world, and was given authority to do so.
"God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another. "
Now, critics of the LDS church will just take the first sentence here out of context. They will say that Mormons believe that God was like one of us in every sense. That is not what Joseph Smith is saying. He explained here what he means. He means that God is a personal being with hands, feet, head, etc. We are created in the image of God. In the Garden of Eden, God literally was walking and talking with God, exactly as the History of the Old Testament describes it. Moses had a similar experience, when "The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend." (Exodus 33:11) Or when the elders of Israel saw God, "and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself."
Joseph Smith is expressing the exact same concept in this sermon. If you were to ask Moses or the elders of Israel, what kind of being does God look like, they would describe "the image and very form of a man."
The sermon given by Joseph Smith expresses the idea that God the Father, at some point in eternities past, lived in a human mortal body like we have (i.e. a man like us, and a man like Jesus Christ was a man), and then God the Father obtained a resurrected body in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained a resurrected body here on Earth.
"What did Jesus say? Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible."
Now, let's look for some context of the verse that Joseph Smith is referring to in John chapter 5, whereby the Jews accuse Jesus and Jesus responds by discussing the resurrection,
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, “Amen, Amen I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do; for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son and showeth Him all things that He Himself doeth; and He will show Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
Just a couple verses later, Jesus returns to the topic of resurrection,
24 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.
What does it mean to pass from death unto life in this verse? It means resurrection from the dead:
25 “Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself,
Joseph Smith was teaching that God the Father has life in Himself, meaning that He is a resurrected Being. When the prophet Joseph said that God is a man like us, he was saying that God the Father is a man like us in the same sense that Jesus Christ is a man like us. Again, this is why Joseph said:
"God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, ...
What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory. And so Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before."
As you can see, Joseph Smith was indicating that God the Father was a man in the same way that Jesus Christ was a man.
Jesus Christ has the exact nature and being as God the Father, but they have lives which are closely knit and a relationship/bond between them. Nevertheless, they are distinct beings from one another. They are not the same being, but instead Jesus, as a perfect Son, is the is the exact same kind of being, who is "one" with God the Father in the Biblical sense as described in John chapter 17. Furthermore, we see that one of Christ's missions on Earth was to show the world exactly what kind of Being God the Father is, in every sense,
"in these last days [God the Father] has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And [Jesus] who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
This is also what Jesus means when he says, "If you know Me, you will also know My Father. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him." (John 14:7) He does not mean that Jesus and God the Father are the same person. He is saying that He is a perfect representation of the kind of being and nature of God the Father in every sense.
-7up
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