Pray to/worship the Lord Jesus or not?

[foudroyant]

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2010/05/...-09285_000_007

Do you still maintain that 1 Peter 3:12 is not a prayer?


2.2 Corinthians 12:8
Here's my evidence that this prayer was directed to the Lord Jesus:
a. NIDNTT: In this way the early church bears witness to the fact that it regards Jesus Christ as its Lord and living head, who, having conquered death, is alive for evermore. Consequently one can enter into living, personal contact with him, talking with him just as one did when he was on earth (cf. Acts 9:10-16; 2 Cor. 12:8f) (2:867, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).
c. NIDNTT: Paul also mentions the word that the exalted Lord spoke to him: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness" (v. 9) (3:315, Revelation, W. Mundle).
b. TDNT: Paul tells us that three times he called on the risen Lord in vain for deliverance from the angel of Satan (5:794, parakalew, Schmitz).
c. Danker: 8- In view of the context, v. 9, it is probable that Paul addressed these three petitions to Christ. If such is the case, it is a unique departure from Paul's custom, which is to address God as the one who is ultimately responsible for everything (cf. 5:18; Rom. 11:33-36). Paul's Jewish liturgical tradition is still firmly entrenched, but Christ is the natural object of his petition here, for it is in the proclamation of his service for all humanity that Paul is engaged. An answer coming from Christ will indeed be especially meaningful (Augsburg Commentary on the New Testament: 2 Corinthians, page 194).
d. Vine: Prayer is properly addressed to God the Father, Matt. 6:6; John 16:23; Eph. 1:17; 3:14, and the Son, Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 12:8 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Prayer, page 872).
e. Murray Harris: It is scarcely open to question that the person addressed in Paul's plea for relief from the battering of the messenger of Satan was the Lord Jesus (The New International Greek Testament Commentary, 2 Corinthians, Murray J. Harris, page 860).
f. R.T. France: In 2 Corinthians 12:8, for instance, who was the 'Lord" to whom Paul prayed? Normally his prayers are addressed to God, but "my power" in the answer to Paul's prayer appears to be identified with 'the power of Christ' (verse 9). It seems then that for Paul, Jesus was already so much identified with God that the same language was naturally applicable to each ("The Worship of Jesus - A Neglected Factor In Christological Debate?", R.T. France, Vox Evangelica, 12, c. 1981, 19-33 -> This quote here appears on page 29).

Not only do they affirm this prayer is to the Lord Jesus but they also point out the context teaches the same thing.
Let's see your evidence that this prayer was not directed to the Lord Jesus.


3. Acts 1:24
This is part of what I previously wrote concerning this passage
"Your point would be valid if there were no more prayers to the Lord Jesus after this event but that is not the case at all."
The rest of the N.T. is against your position.


4. Doxologies
Is it ok to sing TO Jesus?


5. John 5:23 - The level of their worship ought to be in equality. Terrible ploy by you attempting to sidetrack this.


6. Acts 7:59
The vision is said to have taken place inside the city while his martyrdom occurred outside of it.

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
(Acts 7:55-58, KJV)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+7&version=KJV

Prove your assertion that Stephen "was looking at Jesus in vision as he died."


7. 1 Corinthians 1:2
Thanks for your opinion about what to call upon the name of the Lord means. I'll stick with how the words of the Bible are properly defined.


8. Not enough time to address 2 Nephi 25:29? It took me 4 times posting it but somehow you had time to address other things I had written about.
The Old Testament understanding of what is written is said to refer to prayer. That's how the Jews understood it as well as the Lord Jesus.


9. No it is not a doxology to the Lord Jesus by McConkie because Mormons have a false Christ. One of the reasons why is that they do not pray to Him. This is their official yet contradictory teaching. (See Post #23 I #4)
It also runs against how the words of the Bible are properly defined (See #1 and #7 above).


10. Don't forget about the prayers to the Lord Jesus that I cited in Post #29.

[seven7up]

Don't forget these prayers to the Lord Jesus as well:

1 Thessalonians 3:11...

All you are doing is quoting people who broaden the definition of "prayer" to include other kinds of praise and worship; like "doxologies" and so forth. In fact, if you are going to include these kinds of worship as "prayer", then Mormons do that all of the time. And then by using that kind of definition I would say that LDS do "pray" to Jesus.

However, Jesus was speaking of a more specific type of communication between God and man when He taught:



LDS can tell the difference. It is too bad that you cannot. And again carbon dioxide was correct when he said you are merely manufacturing a debate by ignoring what LDS actually mean when we speak of prayer, which was the same that Jesus meant in the 4 scriptures cited above.


-7up

[seven7up]

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2010/05/...-09285_000_007

Do you still maintain that 1 Peter 3:12 is not a prayer?

That is correct. It is a teaching ABOUT prayer. These words themselves are not a prayer. Nice try though. This is just another example of you loosening the definition of prayer in attempt to make an argument. Now, suddenly, any mention of prayer is pretended by you to be part of an actual prayer.

2.2 Corinthians 12:8
Here's my evidence that this prayer was directed to the Lord Jesus:

c. Danker: 8- In view of the context, v. 9, it is probable that Paul addressed these three petitions to Christ. If such is the case, it is a unique departure from Paul's custom, which is to address God as the one who is ultimately responsible for everything (cf. 5:18; Rom. 11:33-36).
f. R.T. France: In 2 Corinthians 12:8, for instance, who was the 'Lord" to whom Paul prayed? Normally his prayers are addressed to God, but "my power" in the answer to Paul's prayer appears to be identified with 'the power of Christ' (verse 9).

Not only do they affirm this prayer is to the Lord Jesus but they also point out the context teaches the same thing.
Let's see your evidence that this prayer was not directed to the Lord Jesus.

I placed in bold the portions which support the LDS position on the matter. 1) you have to make assumptions 2) directing prayer to Jesus is not considered the norm

4. Doxologies
Is it ok to sing TO Jesus?

I can't think of any reason why I would sing ONLY to Jesus, and purposely leave out or exclude God the Father.

5. John 5:23 - The level of their worship ought to be in equality. Terrible ploy by you attempting to sidetrack this.

It isn't a side track. It is very important to the LDS position that we have one kind of relationship with God that Father and another kind of relationship with Jesus Christ, because they are not the same person.

6. Acts 7:59
The vision is said to have taken place inside the city while his martyrdom occurred outside of it.

That is probably true, but it is STILL an extraordinary circumstance, having just seen the Savior in vision. The prayer is outside of the norm. He was being stoned to death, and I think we can forgive improper etiquette in such a circumstance.

8. Not enough time to address 2 Nephi 25:29?

I did address it. In fact, I addressed it BEYOND what was necessary. Along with all of your other silly arguments and word games.

9. No it is not a doxology to the Lord Jesus by McConkie

Yes it is. Based on broadening the definition of prayer to ANY kind of praise of Jesus, it would be considered a doxology and according to you, a "prayer."

... because Mormons have a false Christ. One of the reasons why is that they do not pray to Him. This is their official yet contradictory teaching.

Funny how LDS follow Christ's teachings in the Bible better than you do, despite supposedly having a false Christ. How's that for contradiction?

-7up

[Cow Poke]

It is very important to the LDS position that we have one kind of relationship with God that Father and another kind of relationship with Jesus Christ, because they are not the same person.

Hey, 7! How ya doin?

Does it bother you at all that, in the beginning, Smith pretty much taught the Trinity, and only subsequently came up with a more Modalistic version, then the "many gods" version?

[seven7up]

Hey, 7! How ya doin?

Great! How are you?

I will respond on a different thread, as this appears to be an unrelated topic that you bring up.

Likewise, if foudroyant would like to accuse LDS of having a "false Christ", I think he should start another thread, pick what he feels is the MOST powerful argument for such a position, and state his case.

-7up

[Cow Poke]

Great! How are you?

I will respond on a different thread, as this appears to be an unrelated topic that you bring up.

Likewise, if foudroyant would like to accuse LDS of having a "false Christ", I think he should start another thread, pick what he feels is the MOST powerful argument for such a position, and state his case.

-7up

Fair enough!

(And we're doing GREAT -- wife has just become a breast cancer survivor, and is doing super)

[foudroyant]

http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?bk=51&ch=3http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=51&ch=3http://www.studylight.org/com/bnb/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=2http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=3http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=52&ch=3


8. Not only did you dodge the above passages you change what to "call upon the name of the Lord" means. The reason for this is because it proves that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer (Post #28).

[seven7up]

1. So Psalm 34:15-16 and 1 Peter 3:12 is teaching about prayer but since it isn't a prayer being said we shouldn't cite it about directing the prayer to its proper recipient?

You can cite it all you want. Just don't pretend that it is, itself, a prayer. Nor is the verse intended to teach a formula for prayer that would supersede what Christ personally taught. The Lord DOES hear and respond to our prayers, according to the will of God the Father.

2. 2 Corintians 12:8 - We have a probable from Danker and a yes from the others I cited but still the LDS insists that this passage does not teach prayer to the Lord Jesus. Incredible.

c. Danker: it is probable that Paul addressed these three petitions to Christ. If such is the case, it is a unique departure from Paul's custom, which is to address God as the one who is ultimately responsible for everything (cf. 5:18; Rom. 11:33-36).
f. R.T. France: In 2 Corinthians 12:8, for instance, who was the 'Lord" to whom Paul prayed? Normally his prayers are addressed to God, but "my power" in the answer to Paul's prayer appears to be identified with 'the power of Christ' (verse 9).

I'll tell you what is "incredible"; that you think that a "probable departure" from the custom of prayer should constitute as a reason to disregard Christ's teachings on how we should pray. It is incredible that even though Paul's prayers are "normally" addressed to God, you think that we should do it some other way. And the argument that 'the power of Christ' is involved does not indicate that the exact wording of the prayer (which we are not given) was specifically directed to the Son while excluding the Father.

3. You didn't answer my question concerning singing to Jesus. Let me rephrase it to help you.
Is it ok to ever sing directly to Jesus?

Sure. There are probably times/situations where it is o.k. I just can't think of any example off the top of my head where the God the Father would be excluded.

4. John 5:23
You dodged this part: The level of their worship ought to be in equality.

It is annoying when I address scriptural verses that you post over and over and then you claim that I "dodged" it. First, I quoted the verse in context:

John 5:23 (with some context) - "For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. "

Then I explained how this verse says that we should "honor" the Father AND the Son, which is true. However, it does not even approach the issue of prayer in the way that you imply it does. Not even close. Then you tried to bring in Mathew 11:25, as if it supported your baseless assertion/implication for John 5:23, to which I responded:

"Don't you realize how much you have to stretch to get there? You have to quote an entirely unrelated scripture, and avoid that Christ's example of praying to the Father was also a teaching of how we are supposed to worship. How can following Christ's specific instructions and example when it comes to prayer be a form of dishonor? That is nonsense. I call following Christ's instructions "obedience", not dishonor."

Then you quoted, "Both Danker and Thayer cite John 1:23 and Acts 15:8 with John 5:23 demonstrating that the Greek word "kathws" (even as) means equally in John 5:23 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, kathws, page 493), (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, kathws, page 314)."

To which I gave the "tongue in cheek" response - Great. Then you agree that the disciples are "one" with Jesus "even as" Jesus is "one" with the Father. Does that mean they are gods? (See John chapter 17.) Are you now going to agree with Catholics that you can pray to the saints? ----

And I went on to explain more of the context of John 5:23: "{This verse} is not teaching about prayer. This portion of the chapter is talking about the resurrection. So, many LDS will agree with the idea that the Father and the Son are equal in that sense."

I answered again and again that Christ IS to be worshiped. However, when LDS approach God in prayer, we do so according to the way that Jesus taught. He did not teach "pray directly to me." No. He said, "When you pray, do it in this way, ... pray to the Father, in my name."

You are kicking against the pricks foudroyant, and I have not "dodged" anything.

5. Acts 7:59
So if people were aware they were just about to die is it ok for them to pray directly to the Lord Jesus?

For starters, we don't know everything that Stephen said in that event. However, even if we assume that these were the only words that Stephen said, when a person is being stoned to death, it is understandable if he/she forgets or is unable to perform some of the formal aspects of prayer and worship. Again, this is not an example which should negate what Jesus Christ taught about how we should approach God in prayer. None of your citations are good examples.

6. To "love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul" does include praying to Him. This is not a word game but simply a dodge by you (See Post #17).

You are kidding right? It is a game with you. You are implying that Mormons cannot love and serve Jesus because when we pray, we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. What an utterly foolish argument you make. Furthermore, I did not "dodge" the question, I answered this very same issue in post 11 in reference to 2 Nephi 25:29. I said:

For starters, Nephi is coming from a perspective (along with his audience) which had somewhat of an Old Testament understanding of Deity under the Law of Moses.

Remember that McConkie said, "be it remembered that most scriptures that speak of God or of the Lord do not even bother to distinguish the Father from the Son..." This is especially true before the New Testament church. Then I continued:

Either way, it was understood, as is found in the general definition of worship, that Jesus is to be adored, revered, respected, and followed. "The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity" is absolutely included with this. The teachings that we live by are provided by Christ, the Holy One of Israel.

Then I quoted McConkie again:

"The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship." Later McConkie writes, "It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son"

So, let's get this clear in your head, foudroyant. Simply because we follow Christ's instructions to pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, does not mean that we do not worship Jesus. it does not mean that we do not adore Jesus. It does not mean that we do not love or serve Jesus. We certainly do all of those things. In fact, we do it to such an extent, that we follow his instructions when he taught, repeatedly, concerning how we should pray.

7. If LDS follow Christ's teachings in the Bible they would not forbid praying to the Him because Paul prayed to the Lord Jesus did in these passages (which of course you continually dodge). ... 1 Thessalonians 3:11-13

Concerning those scriptures which are not directed to any individual person, and which are not actual prayers according to the meaning that we are discussing. I wrote:

All you are doing is quoting people who broaden the definition of "prayer" to include other kinds of praise and worship; like "doxologies" and so forth. In fact, if you are going to include these kinds of worship as "prayer", then Mormons do that all of the time. And then by using that kind of definition, I would say that LDS do "pray" to Jesus.

However, Jesus was speaking of a more specific type of communication between God and man when He taught:



"...you are merely manufacturing a debate by ignoring what LDS actually mean when we speak of prayer, which was the same that Jesus meant in the 4 scriptures cited above."

In summary, the citations you are referring to do not fall into the category of worship that Jesus and LDS are referring to in the context of this conversation. I did not ignore them. My response was direct and clear. IF you are going to consider a "doxology" as a prayer, then sure, it is O.K. to "pray" about Jesus and LDS do that kind of "prayer" very often.

8. Not only did you dodge the above passages you change what to "call upon the name of the Lord" means. The reason for this is because it proves that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer (Post #28).

It "proves" no such thing. Again, I repeat:

- Remember "that most scriptures that speak of God or of the Lord do not even bother to distinguish the Father from the Son..." Therefore, you have to make "an assumption" that a general term such as "God" or "Lord" is referring to Jesus and Jesus alone.

- Even when LDS are specifically praying with the formula of directing prayer to God the Father and "in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ", this IS "calling upon the name of the Lord". LDS are doing everything, including ordinances, service, prayers, hymns, home teaching, etc. "in the name of Jesus Christ". So, "calling upon the Lord" more than just a formula for prayer, it is a way of living and acting. How can you possibly complain that doing everything in the name of Jesus Christ the Lord, including prayer, is not considered "calling on the name of the Lord"? Because we don't purposefully exclude God the Father? Is that really a reasonable argument from your perspective?

This invented issue that anti-Mormons have come up with (against the LDS praying in the way that Jesus taught) is a waste of time. And if you accuse me again of supposedly "dodging" your poorly constructed, repeat arguments, the conversation is over.

-7up

[foudroyant]

What a disastrous mess.

There is no way I am going to go through all of your confusion and correct it.

Numerous lexicons and dictionaries affirm that 1 Corinthians 1:2 teaches prayer to the Lord Jesus but the Mormons teach this is a no-no.

I noticed you didn't cite just one authority for your assertion which makes your opinion stink something awful.

[seven7up]

I noticed you didn't cite just one authority for your assertion which makes your opinion stink something awful.

Not true,

I cited the authority that matters the most:





With those scriptures in mind, I have a question for you to ask in your prayers tonight. Feel free to ask Jesus directly if you want. Ask him this:

Should Christian believers be taught, as a general practice, to exclude God the Father when praying?




Good luck with that. Just a heads up.


-7up

[foudroyant]

Anyone can cite passages. The question is do they teach what you are claiming and the answer is no.
1 Corinthians 1:2 disproves your claim. Plenty of lexicons concerning this passage overthrow what the Mormons teach but hey they want to play fairy tale word games instead.

Your question presents a false dichotomy because I also pray to the Father.
From my Post #25:
I also pray to the Father (Acts 4:24-40; Galatians 1:5; James 3:9; etc.).

[seven7up]

Plenty of lexicons concerning this passage overthrow what the Mormons teach ....

Mormons simply teach what Christ taught: to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Why would you want to overthrow the teachings of Jesus?


-7up

[foudroyant]

1 Corinthians 1:2 belongs in the Bible as well does it not?

[Sparko]

Um, if Jesus is YHWH in the OT like the Mormons claim, then...

1. He not only accepted prayer, he commanded it!
2. When Jesus was on earth, the Jews still worshiped and prayed to YHWH. So when Jesus told them to pray to God, he was telling them to pray to himself. And he was calling himself the Father! (foot, shot again)

[seven7up]

Um, if Jesus is YHWH in the OT like the Mormons claim, then...

...
2. When Jesus was on earth, the Jews still worshiped and prayed to YHWH. So when Jesus told them to pray to God, he was telling them to pray to himself. And he was calling himself the Father! (foot, shot again)

You are a modalist then?

Yeah, you are shooting yourself in the foot there.

--7up