The New Testament is Anti-Semitic

[shunyadragon]

You seemed to read the whole citation as referring to the opposition between Judaism and Christianity when in actuality it seems to be more a matter of the opposition between Judaism and Islam. It is funny to hear you complaining of the negativity of trashing others. Trashing the religions of others does not really witness to the superiority of the Baha'i way, which I believe should encourage what is good in the views of others.

That is not what I said, please do not misquote me. I have not trashed other religions. The fact that Christianity is highly anti-Jewish from Constantine to near the present and still a problem today is a fact of history since Constantine. The reasons and why they referred to scripture the way they did is another question. I explained to JohnnyP before that the NT is not necessarily anti-Semitic, but the citations noted against Jews have nonetheless lead to a violent anti-Jewish history.

Your reference to the Baha'i writings as anti-Jewish were flawed and explained. There is nothing in the Baha'i writings that advocates an anti-Jewish negative view toward Jews from the Baha'i perspective Your efforts to split frog hairs over the translation are meaningless, since the whole reference is understood as I explained. The intent was the consequences of rejecting the Revelation of God is violence and conflict. This is very much the witness in history and even today.

I will leave the splitting frog hairs of academic translation to Sen and you.

[robrecht]

That is not what I said, please do not misquote me.

I did not quote you at all! But if you like, I can quote you.

I have not trashed other religions.

I will agree to disagree on that, but if you are interested in the opinions of others on this point, go ahead and ask others if they feel if you have been fair to their religious beliefs. My impression is that you constantly ridicule the religious beliefs of others and try to show how your own religious beliefs or philosophy are superior. My impression could be wrong, of course, so please go ahead and ask others.

The fact that Christianity is highly anti-Jewish from Constantine to near the present and still a problem today is a fact of history since Constantine. The reasons and why they referred to scripture the way they did is another question. I explained to JohnnyP before that the NT is not necessarily anti-Semitic, but the citations noted against Jews have nonetheless lead to a violent anti-Jewish history.

You will get no argument from me about the evils of anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism that have been promoted by many Christians throughout history.

[shunyadragon]

I did not quote you at all! But if you like, I can quote you.

I will agree to disagree on that, but if you are interested in the opinions of others on this point, go ahead and ask others if they feel if you have been fair to their religious beliefs. My impression is that you constantly ridicule the religious beliefs of others and try to show how your own religious beliefs or philosophy are superior. My impression could be wrong, of course, so please go ahead and ask others.

Nonetheless you described my views 'as it seems or my impression mode' without citing me specifically, which is hardly ethical. I consider my mode to debate hard, and yes I do not mix words and come down hard on Fundamentalist YEC/OEC Christians, and will continue to do so. I do cite sources and support my views, and I do at times when it is appropriate acknowledge my errors, and adjust my views based on sources.

Vague references to the views of 'unnamed others' is an unfortunate fallacy.

[robrecht]

Nonetheless you described my views 'as it seems or my impression mode' without citing me specifically, which is hardly ethical.

"... ‘The hand of God,’ say the Jews, ‘is chained up.’ Chained up be their own hands; And for that which they have said, they were accursed. ..."

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?

Here is the direct quotation of your initial response:

These are good sources. There are consequences to rejecting the promised messiah and the guidance and blessings that the Messiah brings. The world and the people do suffer from the rejection ot Divine Revelation. Actually I believe when most Jews rejected Christ, the religion became Roman and the consequences that followed.

Vague references to the views of 'unnamed others' is an unfortunate fallacy.

No fallacy at all. I merely invited you to ask others what they thought since I may indeed be mistaken in my impressions.

Getting back to the quote from your holy scriptures, perhaps you could provide the reference to where the Jews say 'the hand of God is chained up.’ Sen referred to the Koran, but I'm wondering about the original Jewish source of this supposed quote or sentiment.

[paramount]

Your negative prerogative needs explanation or sources otherwise it is simple trashing others without explanation gets you nowhere. I have adequately explained the use of accursed, IF YOU READ THE WHOLE CITATION, and not one line. The issue of the improper use of anti-Semitism by Robrecht was also address.

See here:

[shunyadragon]

"... ‘The hand of God,’ say the Jews, ‘is chained up.’ Chained up be their own hands; And for that which they have said, they were accursed. ..."

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?

This is in line with my statements the being accursed is being self-accursed by their denial of the Revelation form God.

Again your reference to the Baha'i writing as anti-Jewish and advocating violence against Jews is not based on sound Baha'i scripture.

Here is the direct quotation of your initial response:



I believe this is Sen's response, not mine

No fallacy at all. I merely invited you to ask others what they thought since I may indeed be mistaken in my impressions.

It still remains third party anonymous accusations, which represent a fallacy and unethical. I have the respect of long term members of Tweb like Glen Morton and Tassman and others, even though we disagree strongly on some issues. It is true that the gang of four accused me of being an atheist, or a strong agnostic and not a theist, and even took it to the board and failed. If I did not challenge beliefs and piss a few off I would consider my presence on Tweb a failure.

Getting back to the quote from your holy scriptures, perhaps you could provide the reference to where the Jews say 'the hand of God is chained up.’ Sen referred to the Koran, but I'm wondering about the original Jewish source of this supposed quote or sentiment.

From the Baha'i perspective the Quran is as legitimate source as the Tanakh.

[robrecht]

Well, I if you read the whole reference your citation came from. The matter of being accursed referred specifically the decision of those to reject the Revelation, and I have to problem with this being a decision on the part of the believers, and that my friend is self inflicted decision.

... I have adequately explained the use of accursed, IF YOU READ THE WHOLE CITATION, and not one line. The issue of the improper use of anti-Semitism by Robrecht was also address.

Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?

[robrecht]

This is in line with my statements the being accursed is being self-accursed by their denial of the Revelation form God.

Again your reference to the Baha'i writing as anti-Jewish and advocating violence against Jews is not based on sound Baha'i scripture.

I never said the Baha'i scriptures advocated violence against Jews.

I believe this is Sen's response, not mine

You believe what is Sen's response and not yours?

It still remains third party anonymous accusations, which represent a fallacy and unethical.

Untrue. I stand behind my own impressions as I myself have stated them and I invited you to check with others for their impressions as I may be mistaken. That is merely an invitation, not a third party accusation.

From the Baha'i perspective the Quran is as legitimate source as the Tanakh.

So it appears you do not have a Jewish source for this quotation attributed to the Jews.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=robrecht;123841]I never said the Baha'i scriptures advocated violence against Jews.

You believe what is Sen's response and not yours?

Here is the direct quotation of your initial response:

Ok I misread the post. This what I said and I have no problem with it in context:

Here is the direct quotation of your initial response:
"These are good sources. There are consequences to rejecting the promised messiah and the guidance and blessings that the Messiah brings. The world and the people do suffer from the rejection of Divine Revelation. Actually I believe when most Jews rejected Christ, the religion became Roman and the consequences that followed."

By ~800 AD the Jews either left or were cleansed from Christianity except for a few isolated communities in the Middle East.

Untrue. I stand behind my own impressions as I myself have stated them and I invited you to check with others for their impressions as I may be mistaken. That is merely an invitation, not a third party accusation.

It is most definitely unnamed third party accusation!!!!!!! Take responsibility for your own accusations and do not duff them off on unnamed third parties. Who am I going to ask? Sparko, seer, Jorge? Third party accusations are your responsibility not mine. I gave two that are reliable long term members of Tweb, Glen Morton now a sometime poster, and Tassman. When express such vague third party meaningless references, it is up to you to back them up.

So it appears you do not have a Jewish source for this quotation attributed to the Jews.

The source was given by Sen. Attributing things in the Tanakh to Jews is problematic, because much of the Tanakh is not written by the Jews it was edited from older sources.

[shunyadragon]

And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfil the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the laws of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-13.html.utf8?

No problem, you are invoking hyperbole to justify your biased view. It is mild compared to what God commanded to do against the Canaanites, Jews and others in the Tanakh. The bottom line is that the reference refers to self-accursed, and makes no reference to Baha'is making any anti-Jewish statements nor actions against the Jews.

[JohnnyP]

That is not what I said, please do not misquote me. I have not trashed other religions. The fact that Christianity is highly anti-Jewish from Constantine to near the present and still a problem today is a fact of history since Constantine. The reasons and why they referred to scripture the way they did is another question. I explained to JohnnyP before that the NT is not necessarily anti-Semitic, but the citations noted against Jews have nonetheless lead to a violent anti-Jewish history.

...The intent was the consequences of rejecting the Revelation of God is violence and conflict.

We all agree Roman Christianity and its offspring "used" Christian ideas, which as robrecht just did and I have pointed out weren't against all Jews -- since the NT was obviously written by Jews, as are condemning statements in the OT about harlotry and such -- but against Jews strayed from our particular notions of godliness.

As I've said elsewhere, Gentile entities like Babylon and Rome were certainly used by God to punish Jews: according to Jewish sages, for idolatry and baseless hatred of one another, respectively.

So from an eschatological perspective, Rome had already started being used as an instrument for God's wrath when it destroyed the Second Temple. Things went especially sour for Jews after the Bar-Kokhba revolt. In the meantime, Christianity grew rapidly among Gentiles despite heavy persecution by Rome. Constantine no doubt felt that if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Roman Christianity/Catholicism is essentially the same old state paganism adapted to Christian ideas and politicized accordingly. Not really a correct form of NT Christianity, apologies to my Catholic friends.

The main point here is, Rome was already in line to punish Jews no matter what, Christianity or not. It doesn't make an apologist's job particularly easy that Christianity became the face of Rome, but prophetically, Rome became the iron rod used to let unrighteous Jews know who was boss. Same as Babylon was, even though Babylon and Rome were by no means innocent themselves.

One could even suppose that if Jews didn't want a Messiah in Jesus to protect them, they'd get one who would punish them, but they'd get one whether they liked it or not.

So to say that the NT itself led to persecution of Jews misses this whole point that God allowed it for His own reasons. Which you even agree was a similar intent of those Baha'i teachings discussing satanic fancies of Jews and such, to drive home that point.

[robrecht]

Ok I misread the post. This what I said and I have no problem with it in context:

Here is the direct quotation of your initial response:
"These are good sources. There are consequences to rejecting the promised messiah and the guidance and blessings that the Messiah brings. The world and the people do suffer from the rejection of Divine Revelation. Actually I believe when most Jews rejected Christ, the religion became Roman and the consequences that followed."

By ~800 AD the Jews either left or were cleansed from Christianity except for a few isolated communities in the Middle East.

It is most definitely unnamed third party accusation!!!!!!! Take responsibility for your own accusations and do not duff them off on unnamed third parties. Who am I going to ask? Sparko, seer, Jorge? Third party accusations are your responsibility not mine. I gave two that are reliable long term members of Tweb, Glen Morton now a sometime poster, and Tassman. When express such vague third party meaningless references, it is up to you to back them up.

Ask whomever you like. I have taken full responsibility, several times now, for my own expression of my own impression. An invitation for you to ask others their impressions, because my own may be mistaken, is in no way an anonymous third party accusation. It is merely an invitation for you to ask anyone whom you choose because my own impression may be mistaken.

The source was given by Sen. Attributing things in the Tanakh to Jews is problematic, because much of the Tanakh is not written by the Jews it was edited from older sources.

I suspect it is even worse when you use the Qur'an as a source for quoting the opinion of 'the Jews' so I asked if you had a Jewsih source, any Jewish source of your pleasing.

[robrecht]

No problem, you are invoking hyperbole to justify your biased view. It is mild compared to what God commanded to do against the Canaanites, Jews and others in the Tanakh. The bottom line is that the reference refers to self-accursed, and makes no reference to Baha'is making any anti-Jewish statements nor actions against the Jews.

I'm curious. What in my remarks do you see as hyperbolic?

[Darth Executor]

Shuny's hostility to religion is infamous enough that many of us pretty much just assume he's some sort of atheist.

[paramount]

Shuny's hostility to religion is infamous enough that many of us pretty much just assume he's some sort of atheist.

Forget about Shuny, you should see what Baha'u'llah says about those who deny Baha'ism or those who have enmity towards him:

"Whoever denies this Apparent Exalted Luminous Grace (meaning Baha’ism), it is worthy that he asks his state from his mother and he will soon be returned to the bottom of hell."

(Abdul-Hamid Ishraq Khavari, Ma’idiy-i asimani, vol. 4, p. 355)

"Whoever has the enmity of this servant (meaning Baha’u’llah) in his heart, certainly Satan has entered his mother’s bed."

(Abdul-Hamid Ishraq Khavari, Ganj-i shaygan, p. 79)

'Asking your state from your mother' is an idiom in Persian that means 'you are a bastard'. 'Satan entering your mother's bed' sort of conveys the same meaning.

None of the two aforementioned quotes have been translated into English by the Baha'i administration but images of both original quotes in Arabic can be found on the official Baha'i library on these pages in case you want to double check them:
http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/b/MA...355.html#pg355
http://reference.bahai.org/fa/t/o/GS/gs-79.html#pg79

Some more nasty stuff can be found here:
Oneness of humanity in baha'i