The New Testament is Anti-Semitic

[shunyadragon]

Start your own thread about Foote and Wheeler. This one was started to discuss a link to a little article by Dan Wallace about the originally intended meaning of some New Testament texts.

Necessarily relevant to this thread. Case stated in detail, No need for another thread.

[robrecht]

I do not believe that the article nor the posts that follow successfully address the issues. The New Testament should not necessarily be called anti-semitic, but there is indeed a problem of antisemitism in the New Testament and the history of Christianity up to the present.

The article begins with this quote.



First problem is I do not consider this quote representative of the relationship between Christians and Jews in the NT since it only refers to Jews and Gentiles who are believers in Christ.

The controversy did not begin with Mel Gibson's Movie.

[shunyadragon]

Start your own thread about Foote and Wheeler. This one was started to discuss a link to a little article by Dan Wallace about the originally intended meaning of some New Testament texts.

Its sacking the deck if you are restricting the debate to one article and a 'some' New Testament texts, thus avoiding the consequences of ALL the relevant citations of the New Testament, actual history, and the consequences of the New Testament as the cause of anti-Jewish pogroms and persecution.

You could of course, keep everything since, neat and comfortable in your own limited reality to justify what you want to believe, but this is not the WHOLE reality of history.

[shunyadragon]

Taking Baha'i citations out of context does not help your case, and as usual diverting the debate with off topic stuff. This was addressed in another thread and as usual you ignored the explanation of the whole context in the Baha'i writings. You are doing the same here by attempting to limit the discussion to only articles, texts, discussion that make your own view comfortable. The Baha'i writings did not curse the Jews, and make direct statements attacking Jews as the New Testament did.

[robrecht]

Its sacking the deck if you are restricting the debate to one article and a 'some' New Testament texts, thus avoiding the consequences of ALL the relevant citations of the New Testament, actual history, and the consequences of the New Testament as the cause of anti-Jewish pogroms and persecution.

You could of course, keep everything since, neat and comfortable in your own limited reality to justify what you want to believe, but this is not the WHOLE reality of history.

I am not restricting debate, but we have no disagreement about antisemitism in the history of the church. There is no debate about that. You were the one who said that I and others were avoiding the issue of this thread when in fact you have been doing so yourself, refusing to discuss the meaning of the New Testament texts in their proper historical contexts.

[robrecht]

Taking Baha'i citations out of context does not help your case, and as usual diverting the debate with off topic stuff. This was addressed in another thread and as usual you ignored the explanation of the whole context in the Baha'i writings. You are doing the same here by attempting to limit the discussion to only articles, texts, discussion that make your own view comfortable. The Baha'i writings did not curse the Jews, and make direct statements attacking Jews as the New Testament did.

[shunyadragon]

I am not restricting debate, but we have no disagreement about antisemitism in the history of the church. There is no debate about that. You were the one who said that I and others were avoiding the issue of this thread when in fact you have been doing so yourself, refusing to discuss the meaning of the New Testament texts in their proper historical contexts.

I have presented the New Testament in the overall historical context. It is you who are dodging the facts of origins of Christian anti-Jewish persecution and direct history and references in the text.

Your references to historical context have been vague and nebulous, limited to a few citations and one article, and without sufficient explanation. As you said, you have not presented and argument . . .

[robrecht]

I have presented the New Testament in the overall historical context. It is you who are dodging the facts of origins of Christian anti-Jewish persecution and direct history and references in the text.

Your references to historical context have been vague and nebulous, limited to a few citations and one article, and without sufficient explanation. As you said, you have not presented and argument . . .

You refuse to engage about the historical contexts in which the New Testament texts were written, which is the the proper context for understanding these texts and the whole point of this thread. Pick any text you like, and I will discuss it with you. Unlike you, I will not avoid your questions.

[shunyadragon]

You refuse to engage about the historical contexts in which the New Testament texts were written, which is the the proper context for understanding these texts and the whole point of this thread. Pick any text you like, and I will discuss it with you. Unlike you, I will not avoid your questions.

You have so far offered nothing with which I can engage, just air balls and vague accusation of what I have supposedly not done. As you said, 'I have not presented an argument.'

[robrecht]

You have so far offered nothing with which I can engage, just air balls and vague accusation of what I have supposedly not done. As you said, 'I have not presented an argument.'

Not true. I have twice tried to engage you on the context of Paul's letter to the Romans. And I have already corrected you on this misrepresentation. I have not presented an argument regarding Constantine and later persecution of Jews because I am trying to get you to engage about the original historical contexts in which the New Testament texts were written. You will not address this globally or with respect to specific texts.

[shunyadragon]

Not true. I have twice tried to engage you on the context of Paul's letter to the Romans. And I have already corrected you on this misrepresentation. I have not presented an argument regarding Constantine and later persecution of Jews because I am trying to get you to engage about the original historical contexts in which the New Testament texts were written. You will not address this globally or with respect to specific texts.

You have presented nothing here that I can respond to.

We disagree on the Romans citations by Paul - Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." I believe his references are clear that he is those who believe in Christ, later referred to as Christians. We disagree, but yes here is a basis for my position

[robrecht]

You have presented nothing here that I can respond to.

We disagree on the Romans citations by Paul - Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." I believe his references are clear that he is those who believe in Christ, later referred to as Christians. We disagree, but yes here is a basis for my position

Untrue, again. You completely ignored this part of my post:

If you read this verse in the context of Paul's letter to the Romans, you will see that he clearly believes that all Israel will be saved, including those who do not presently believe in Christ and those who came before. When he speaks of 'the Jew first' here he is referring to God's irrevocable election of Israel from the time of the patriarchs. When you attempt to speak about the relationship between Christians and Jews in the New Testament, you are ignoring that almost all authors, if not all, of the New Testament texts were themselves 'Jews' or proselytes to Judaism who also believed that Jesus was the Messiah

[shunyadragon]

Untrue, again. You completely ignored this part of my post:

Did not, I made myself clear. You have not provided anything I can respond to.

As for all those who have faith, for Paul that includes Abraham, as one can see in the immediately following verse: For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous will live by faith.”

We disagree. when he refers to Greeks, he refers to the converted, I believe likewise the same for the Jews, and they converted first before the Greeks. This point we disagree. Actually this not main citations that determine whether the NT supports anti-Jewish persecution.

I believe the following confirms it refers to the converted: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29: And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

[robrecht]

Did not, I made myself clear. You have not provided anything I can respond to.

We disagree. when he refers to Greeks, he refers to the converted, I believe likewise the same for the Jews, and they converted first before the Greeks. This point we disagree. Actually this not main citations that determine whether the NT supports anti-Jewish persecution.

"I believe the following confirms it refers to the converted: For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29: And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

I do not disagree with the above, but if you were more familiar with the writings of Paul, you would know that this includes Abraham, as is intimated here in verse 29 and as is made explicit in Paul's letter to the Galatians:

Just as Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” so, you see, those who believe are the descendants of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, declared the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the Gentiles shall be blessed in you.” For this reason, those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed.

You have once again ignored the the context of Paul's letter to the Romans, where it is clear that he believes that all Israel will be saved, including those who do not presently believe in Christ and those who came before. He speaks of God's irrevocable election of Israel from the time of the patriarchs. And, when you attempt to speak about the relationship between Christians and Jews in the New Testament, you are ignoring that almost all authors, if not all, of the New Testament texts were themselves 'Jews' or proselytes to Judaism who also believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

[shunyadragon]

Question answered in the previous thread. OFF TOPIC