"Virgin Birth" Questions

[Geert van den Bos]

Presumed to be.

No he wasn't

In this case, insinuating that the impoverished Mary did not have G-d's uniquely begotten.

But not from Solomon. It is interesting how you ignore Mary's patriarchal line as well.

The question was how contemporaries could have known that Mary was still a virgin when she conceived, and how the virgin birth could ever be a sign.

Rashi on the sign that Isaiah 7:14 speaks of:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

Immanuel:

[Omniskeptical]

The question was how contemporaries could have known that Mary was still a virgin when she conceived, and how the virgin birth could ever be a sign.

Rashi on the sign that Isaiah 7:14 speaks of:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

But they did know, and the OT was composed of just the law and true prophetical writings back then.

[Geert van den Bos]

But they did know, and the OT was composed of just the law and true prophetical writings back then.

"They" , who do you mean by them?

Matthew and Luke seem to use their stories of the virgin birth as allegory or methaphor.
According to Matthew only Joseph knew, informed in a dream by an angel, Joseph who shares his name with Jacob's eleventh son, "the dreamer".
Ok, you can say, he knew that she was pregnant, and also that he hadn't been initimate with her, suspecting her of having had sex with another man.
But how could Matthew ever know what Joseph did dream? Or, do you think, did Joseph tell all the world?

[Omniskeptical]

"They" , who do you mean by them?

Matthew and Luke seem to use their stories of the virgin birth as allegory or methaphor.
According to Matthew only Joseph knew, informed in a dream by an angel, Joseph who shares his name with Jacob's eleventh son, "the dreamer".
Ok, you can say, he knew that she was pregnant, and also that he hadn't been initimate with her, suspecting her of having had sex with another man.
But how could Matthew ever know what Joseph did dream? Or, do you think, did Joseph tell all the world?

Joseph must have told them, after having written it down, of course.

[Avraham Ibn Ezra]

You're shifting the goalpost at this point - or you are contending that an Orthodox Jew can reasonably hold that there are limits on what God can and cannot do - including creating 'necessities' on His own actions? As a Christian, that is an untenable position - I suspect is is for an Orthodox Jew as well.

Actually....Orthodox Judaism believes that G-d is self-limiting. He limits himself to being unlimited. Meaning He would not voluntarily move from infinite to finite, from all-knowing to unknowing, from omnipresence to a singular presence. Let me ask you this question...Can G-d Be Evil?

And it stems directly from your insistence on the use of 'need/necessity'. That or you think God can't control circumstance - which I doubt.

Or he choses to not interfere or control and lets humans have free will unless there is a promise that He has to fulfill and thus interfere.

My position is that a Virgin Birth was 'necessary' ONLY insomuch as God chose to cause it to be necessary. God decided how He would send His Messiah - could have been on eagle's wings, via FedEx, or teleportation but, in His divine wisdom, He picked Incarnation and chose to use Virgin Birth to signify the Child's significance. Are you seriously going to contend that God didn't have the power or the right to do so? If not, then your objection to God having created His own 'necessity' is foolishness.

That is not my contention. My contention is that G-d purposely self limits Himself. but that isnt the real issue. The real issue which stems from my question is what would cause this necessity to for a "virgin birth" to bring forth the messiah? For Sarah, It was because she was barren and G-d's promise to Avraham. What is Mary's excuse?

Women don't have 'seed'. Not really that hard to go from there. You don't have to agree with the interpretation - that's a whole separate argument - but it is one of the supporting passages and has been historically understood to foreshadow a Virgin Birth.

Who is The Angel of HaShem saying "Your Seed" to in Genesis 16:10? (Hint: Genesis 16:8)

Genesis 16:10 And the angel of the HaShem said to her: 'I will greatly multiply your seed, that it shall not be numbered among the many.

You asked why we view the Virgin Birth as necessary and not how we support it Scripturally. There are better scholars than I that can help you with that. I'm simply explaining how we come to the conclusion. However, I find your rant about the exegesis rather silly - you never asked for that explanation that I recall - you just kept insisting it wasn't 'necessary'.

I think the implication of my question and the follow ups either explicitly asked or implied for a followup that explains how you arrive at the conclusion.

The connection is that God CAN. There is NOTHING natural in Sarah's childbirth - that's ludicrous.

So are you saying that Avraham did not have sexual relations with Sarah to produce Isaac?

Minus modern medicine or divine intervention old women do NOT suddenly conceive.

Minus the fact the people lived longer back then it is possible for people who are older to have children naturally. in Modern terms what would you consider old? Would 50 be old for having children? 60? 70?

Sarah was past menopause and her ovaries were mostly spent - she wouldn't have been able to release an egg - let alone prep the womb - unless God caused it happen. If God can reverse menopause then impregnating a woman minus sperm is no biggie for Him. Actually, that's not necessarily the miraculous part - it's long been speculated that a woman could conceive without sperm (there are some natural parallels if memory serves) but the child would necessarily have to be female - the miraculous part is that Jesus was a boy.

Does the text say she was past menopause or that she was simply barren in her youth and later advanced in age? one could assume that she was but, that isn't truly what the text says.

Either way Avraham copulated with Sarah to produce Isaac. That is different from eliminating the sperm factor altogether and going for a "virgin birth" of a child using completely unnatural meas to doing that.

Would have helped.

you're probably right. :)

[Avraham Ibn Ezra]

How could contemporaries have known that Jesus' mother was still a virgin when she got pregnant? There seems no other way to know than gynaecological investigation. So how could it ever be a sign?

The Torah proscribes ways of proving Virginity.

[Avraham Ibn Ezra]

Solomon was not a son of God until dead, and there is nothing in the hebrew to imply literal sonship.

According to 2 Samuel 7:14 he was called G-d's son. So you actually know Hebrew? Please translate the below phrase.

אֲנִי אֶהְיֶה-לּוֹ לְאָב, וְהוּא יִהְיֶה-לִּי לְבֵן

It is too bad Modern Jews don't notice what few things the OT says about the afterlife.

Relevance?

Without sonship, the king messiah may as well be a fake, because the requirements are a fake ID.

apparently being a "son of G-d" is a requirement since the Kings of Israel of David's line are called that.

There is no way in christianity you can apply sonship to a human being other than Adam or Yeshu without getting laughed.

Explain 2 Samuel 7:14. I have yet to hear you explain it or even rebut it. Here lets post it from 2 Samuel 7:8-15 and let you explain it to me how G-d is not calling Solomon His son. I will pot it from a translation so it isn't me translating it.

8. Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto My servant David: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be prince over My people, over Israel.

9. And I have been with thee whithersoever thou didst go, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee; and I will make thee a great name, like unto the name of the great ones that are in the earth.

10. And I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in their own place, and be disquieted no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as at the first,

11. even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will cause thee to rest from all thine enemies. Moreover the LORD telleth thee that the LORD will make thee a house.

12. When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy body, and I will establish his kingdom.

13. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14. I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men

15. but My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. ם. 16 And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee; thy throne shall be established for ever.'

I tempted to look up the hebrew for begotten now. The hebrew says, "a day I was begetting thee." Bulcrap. The tense seems different from the greek among other things.

ROFL! Apparently when faced with evidence that doesn't support your notions you resort to saying "bulcrap" and just pounding your fists. ROFL!

You are incorrect in that "translation by the way. it says אָמַר אֵלַי בְּנִי אַתָּה אֲנִי הַיּוֹם יְלִדְתִּיךָ "He said to me (אָמַר אֵלַי), you are my son(בְּנִי אַתָּה), I have begotten you this day(אֲנִי הַיּוֹם יְלִדְתִּיךָ)." would you like for me to go over why you are wrong about the final phrase of this verse? just ask and I can.

[Geert van den Bos]

The Torah proscribes ways of proving Virginity.

Maybe i should have written:


How could contemporaries have known that Jesus' mother was still a virgin when she was pregnant? There seems no other way to know than gynaecological investigation. So how could it ever be a sign?

[Geert van den Bos]

Not only Joseph was named after an OT-person, also Mary, called so after Moses' sister, who played a major role in Moses' birth.

Whether Mary and Joseph were historic persons is uncertain.

But one thing for sure: the virgin birth is not historical.

[Geert van den Bos]

Significant might be that also around Jesus' death and resurrection a Joseph and a Mary do figure, Joseph of Arimateia and Mary Magdalene.

Also resurrection being not historical ...

[Omniskeptical]

I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son.

Yes, it doesn't Solomon is the son of God.

[Teallaura]

Haven't forgotten but I'm kinda busy this week - I will get back to you, Av!

[Avraham Ibn Ezra]

Haven't forgotten but I'm kinda busy this week - I will get back to you, Av!

Take your time! No rush. :)

[Avraham Ibn Ezra]

Yes, it doesn't Solomon is the son of God.

Read 2 Samuel 7:8-15. It actually does. If this is your only argument then please exegete the passage and prove what I said incorrect.

[Avraham Ibn Ezra]