"Virgin Birth" Questions

[Geert van den Bos]

So why discuss "zachar" and "satar"?

Because of Luke 1:34, ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω, "Man (male) I do not know"

and Isaiah 65:17, the first ones shall not be remembered, neither shall they come into mind. Remembered = "tizzacharnah" - root "zachar"= male.

And this coinciding Genesis 4:9 --

Not so bad, since both Matthew and Luke refer to Genesis 4:10, , Matthew 23:35-36,

so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between (BS)the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these bloods will come upon this generation.


cf. Rashi on Genesis 4:10, Your brother’s blood: Heb. דְּמֵי, the plural form. His blood and the blood of his descendants

[mitzi]

I testify to what I have seen - the scripture declares that Jesus grew in stature and wisdom.
Luke 2:40, 52

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

[robrecht]

Because of Luke 1:34, ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω, "Man (male) I do not know"

and Isaiah 65:17, the first ones shall not be remembered, neither shall they come into mind. Remembered = "tizzacharnah" - root "zachar"= male.

And this coinciding Genesis 4:9 --

Not so bad, since both Matthew and Luke refer to Genesis 4:10, , Matthew 23:35-36,

so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between (BS)the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these bloods will come upon this generation.


cf. Rashi on Genesis 4:10, Your brother’s blood: Heb. דְּמֵי, the plural form. His blood and the blood of his descendants

So the Greek text of Luke/Q 11,51 somehow shows that the Greek text of Luke 1,34 must be interpreted by the Hebrew text of Isaiah 65,17? Why not attend to the plain meaning of the text, as Rashi himself would surely advise you to do?

[Geert van den Bos]

So the Greek text of Luke/Q 11,51 somehow shows that the Greek text of Luke 1,34 must be interpreted by the Hebrew text of Isaiah 65,17? Why not attend to the plain meaning of the text, as Rashi himself would surely advise you to do?

We are trying to understand "virgin birth", even why it would be needed.

[robrecht]

We are trying to understand "virgin birth", even why it would be needed.

It's not. Nor is the Hebrew text of Isaiah 65,17 necessary, or particularly helpful, in understanding Luke's Greek text in my opinion.

[tabibito]

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

I-i s ee~. Jesus' origin means that Luke was mistaken.

[Teallaura]

I-i s ee~. Jesus' origin means that Luke was mistaken.

Um, no, it doesn't. Jesus pre-Incarnation doesn't preclude Jesus Incarnate.

[Geert van den Bos]

It's not. Nor is the Hebrew text of Isaiah 65,17 necessary, or particularly helpful, in understanding Luke's Greek text in my opinion.

This is very interesting: http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/artic...-and-Wooly.htm

Abel [then] attempted to rectify Cain's error, and brought an offering of wool.

(...)


In order for the spirit of malchut to be replenished, malchut must receive from yesod. As we saw, the inner life force of malchut of Yetzira is, allegorically, the power of the earth to produce vegetation. In order for this to be replenished, it must receive from the next higher form of life up, i.e. from the animal kingdom. Therefore, Abel had to bring an animal offering

Abel brought a "keves" = lamb.

John 1:29, Ἴδε ὁ ἀμνὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ὁ αἴρων τὴν ἁμαρτίαν τοῦ κόσμου.
Greek ἀμνὸς translates Hebrew "keves" --

So "the sin of the world" might be nothing else than Cain sowing flax ....

[robrecht]

And this relates to the virgin birth how?

[Geert van den Bos]

And this relates to the virgin birth how?

The virgin birth is related to the resurrection ( the resurrected one living eternal needs a virgin birth, eternity having no beginning and no end.)

The necessity being expressed in Mark10:31,

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and (must) be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and (must) be killed, and after three days (must) rise again


Greek: Καὶ ἤρξατο διδάσκειν αὐτοὺς ὅτι δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ παθεῖν καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι ὑπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ τῶν ἀρχιερέων καὶ τῶν γραμματέων καὶ ἀποκτανθῆναι καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἀναστῆναι:

[robrecht]

The virgin birth is related to the resurrection ( the resurrected one living eternal needs a virgin birth, eternity having no beginning and no end.)

The necessity being expressed in Mark10:31,

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and (must) be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and (must) be killed, and after three days (must) rise again

Greek: Καὶ ἤρξατο διδάσκειν αὐτοὺς ὅτι δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ παθεῖν καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι ὑπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ τῶν ἀρχιερέων καὶ τῶν γραμματέων καὶ ἀποκτανθῆναι καὶ μετὰ τρεῖς ἡμέρας ἀναστῆναι:

Are these your own beliefs or your characterization as an outsider of what Christians believe?

[Geert van den Bos]

Are these your own beliefs or your characterization as an outsider of what Christians believe?

That both virgin birth and resurrection are not historical was also maintained by Edward Schillebeeckx.

[robrecht]

That both virgin birth and resurrection are not historical was also maintained by Edward Schillebeeckx.

But what is your source on the supposed necessity of the virgin birth?

[Geert van den Bos]

But what is your source on the supposed necessity of the virgin birth?

1. Friedrich Weinreb "Innenwelt des Wortes im Neuen Testament" http://www.amazon.de/Innenwelt-Worte.../dp/3884110349 ("zachar" = male = the inner; "n'keivah" = female = the outer.)


2. Isaac Luria http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/artic...-and-Wooly.htm (on the necessity of an animal offering).

[mitzi]

I-i s ee~. Jesus' origin means that Luke was mistaken.

John's Gospel is strikingly different from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, the three Synoptic Gospels, which means "seen with the same eye" or from the same viewpoint. The passage that brings this to light is in Luke. The fact that both John (the Baptist) and Jesus were still in the womb - both women (Elizabeth & Mary) had prophecized. The divinity of both John & Jesus brought out the Spirit on both women - it would be comparible to the brightness of Moses face (shining - Exodus 34:29-35 New International Version (NIV) The Radiant Face of Moses).

I'm not saying that the passage in Luke is or isn't correct - but perhaps, not to underestimate the "growing in wisdom and understanding". I couldn't fathom the immensity of that wisdom - "He grew in wisdom and understanding".....think about that for one second and then read John 1.


Mary Visits Elizabeth

39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”