"Virgin Birth" Questions

[Teallaura]

'we don't know who your father was' ???

Matthew 13:55, "Is not this the carpenter's son?"

Luke 4:22,

John 6:42,

Romans 1:3, who was descended from David according to the flesh

I had a reason for that statement but for the life of me I can't remember the verse well enough to find the citation. The point is therefore unsupported and I retract for the moment. (If I ever find it and remember to revisit this I reserve the right to reverse the position).

[mitzi]

It isn't in the old testament, but being so would a good credential. I am merely explaining the "christ"-messiah. The word of God mentioned is God's name in 4 hebrew letters, by the way. John 1:1c θεος ην ο λογος, "the God was a word". And the "christ"-messiah is also a priest-physician of Judah; which is unfortunate for explainations. The requirement of "Virgin Birth" would be in the Jeremiah book of Kings, and prohecied by Isaiah theoretically. Unfortunately, there are edits in the prophecy books which make the messiah's origin's inferior and easier to replicate by mankind. But I find the edit in the Torah where God tries to reform Cain before killing Abel is the most pathetic. Lightly telling him to excel instead of underacheiving rather, then promising "the gift will return itself", after saying hold thy peace.

Backing up to this post - the requirements were never stated for the King Messiah. Remember, there were and is "NO" requirements listed. The assumption was that each prophet and/or king had given identical qualities to the Messiah - Wisdom in expression and thought also to be seperate and divine (Holy) but like all great patriarch who had great faith in God (Avraham, Moses (see Hebrew 11) -they all had a close relationship with God; some prophets and Kings were Teachers (again, e.g Samuel) as some were leaders (liken to Moses; The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me).

Was the expectation or did the prophecy claim that the Messiah needed to be born from a "virgin birth"? Obviously so! Was this to show his separateness (holiness) however, he did not remain aloof from others or from sinners? The Talmud (Nedarim 64b) says that there are four people who are considered as dead even while still alive; a poor person, a leper, a blind person, and one without children. What did our Lord do for these specific people....


Was it the virgin birth that testified to his creditability to the Messiahship or his teachings or his ability to heal the blind and the sick? (Ezekiel 34) Who had shepherded the flock - Christ Himself enlightened. He showed qualities of being the Messiah with his teachings.

[Omniskeptical]

Backing up to this post - the requirements were never stated for the King Messiah. Remember, there were and is "NO" requirements listed.

Prophecy who smote thee?

[Teallaura]

Um, Av? Do I still owe you a reply on anything?

[mitzi]

Prophecy who smote thee?

Prophecy tells us of the coming of the Messiah but doesn't give us away to identify who he will be. This is why the prophet will come prior - John 1:“Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”

Perhaps for a reason God kept the major prophets hidden before they had approached the people- if memory serves me well, and there have been occasions where it sometimes does and doesn't, Avraham, Moses, Jesus. I think there have been some real good examples regarding Jacob - more so as God brought him more out in Genesis. When we read the story of Moses - which is my all time favorite, we understand that Moses was separated from his family and people but eventually he was brought into the community. The leadership was not a small undertaking for him - but as for Jesus, the story is something we can find amazing through the birth, and then ministry but on a smaller note the "strength and wisdom" was always there within him but with Moses, he had to develop it as his relationship grew stronger with God.

[tabibito]

Luke 2:40 το δε παιδιον ηυξανεν και εκραταιουτο πνευματι πληρουμενον σοφιας και χαρις θεου ην επ αυτο
but the child was growing and gaining strength [in the spirit], being filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.
[in the spirit] does not appear in all manuscript groups.

'Twould seem that there is some doubt about full fledged strength and wisdom always having been with Jesus.

[Geert van den Bos]

Luke 1:34, Greek, εἶπεν δὲ Μαριὰμ πρὸς τὸν ἄγγελον, Πῶς ἔσται τοῦτο, ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω;

But Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be since a man I don't know?"

"οὐ γινώσκω" is also in LXX Genesis 4:9, καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς *καιν ποῦ ἐστιν Aβελ ὁ ἀδελφός σου ὁ δὲ εἶπεν οὐ γινώσκω μὴ φύλαξ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ μού εἰμι ἐγώ

And God said to Cain: "Where is Abel your brother?" and he said: "I don't know, not my brother's keeper am I?"

Now you can interpret these things in different ways.

Was Cain telling a lie? Then maybe also Mary?

Or did they forget?

Hebrew "male" = "zachar" -- as a verb "zachar"does mean "to remember".

So you might interpret Luke 1:34 as "I don't remember having sex with anyone" --

Like Genesis 4:9: "I don't remember killing my brother"

Which might not be a lie. Cain did hide it. Hebrew "satar" carries both meanings: "to deny" and "to hide". He did hide it such way that he didn't remember. He gave no thought to it anymore.

Isaiah 65:17 might denote the same:

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the first ones shall not be remembered, neither shall they come into mind

OIOW, Isaiah 65:17 might be about the virgin birth ...

I think so

[tabibito]

Kind of hard to believe that a YOUNG woman's pregnancy, stated to be a sign from God, could be a sign from God if the said young woman had been swyving.
Though there is some ambiguity about the meaning of the word, almah, there is no ambiguity where the prophesied pregnancy is a sign from God himself.

[robrecht]

Luke 1:34, Greek, εἶπεν δὲ Μαριὰμ πρὸς τὸν ἄγγελον, Πῶς ἔσται τοῦτο, ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω;

But Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be since a man I don't know?"

"οὐ γινώσκω" is also in LXX Genesis 4:9, καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς *καιν ποῦ ἐστιν Aβελ ὁ ἀδελφός σου ὁ δὲ εἶπεν οὐ γινώσκω μὴ φύλαξ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ μού εἰμι ἐγώ

And God said to Cain: "Where is Abel your brother?" and he said: "I don't know, not my brother's keeper am I?"

Now you can interpret these things in different ways.

Was Cain telling a lie? Then maybe also Mary?

Or did they forget?

Hebrew "male" = "zachar" -- as a verb "zachar"does mean "to remember".

So you might interpret Luke 1:34 as "I don't remember having sex with anyone" --

Like Genesis 4:9: "I don't remember killing my brother"

Which might not be a lie. Cain did hide it. Hebrew "satar" carries both meanings: "to deny" and "to hide". He did hide it such way that he didn't remember. He gave no thought to it anymore.

Isaiah 65:17 might denote the same:

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the first ones shall not be remembered, neither shall they come into mind

OIOW, Isaiah 65:17 might be about the virgin birth ...

I think so

"zachar" and "satar" do not appear in Genesis 4,9.

[Geert van den Bos]

"zachar" and "satar" do not appear in Genesis 4,9.

But "lo yadati" = ich habe es nicht gewusst

[robrecht]

But "lo yadati" = ich habe es nicht gewusst

So why discuss "zachar" and "satar"?

[tabibito]

gewusst is a participle - its root being wissen. It can translate as "remember", but (to the best of my knowledge) not in the sense of an antonym for "forget". "I remember when I was young ..." yes, in that sense, it can translate as remember.

Source Language

Target Language
WISSEN
Human Translation

Translate
knowledge, know how, awareness

know, have knowledge of, be acquainted with, be aware of; remember, recall to the mind

be at one's wit's end, be at a loss

[mitzi]

Luke 2:40 το δε παιδιον ηυξανεν και εκραταιουτο πνευματι πληρουμενον σοφιας και χαρις θεου ην επ αυτο
but the child was growing and gaining strength [in the spirit], being filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him.
[in the spirit] does not appear in all manuscript groups.

'Twould seem that there is some doubt about full fledged strength and wisdom always having been with Jesus.

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?


That last phrase sells me......

[Teallaura]

gewusst is a participle - its root being wissen. It can translate as "remember", but (to the best of my knowledge) not in the sense of an antonym for "forget". "I remember when I was young ..." yes, in that sense, it can translate as remember.

Source Language

Target Language
WISSEN
Human Translation

Translate
knowledge, know how, awareness

know, have knowledge of, be acquainted with, be aware of; remember, recall to the mind

be at one's wit's end, be at a loss

Yeah, I read it as 'I hadn't known it.' - remember isn't the first word that comes to mind when I see a form of wissen.

[tabibito]

we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

I testify to what I have seen - the scripture declares that Jesus grew in stature and wisdom.
Luke 2:40, 52