Muhammad mentioned by name in the Song of Songs?

[Christian3]

He's going to ignore all of the points you bring up from the Bible because he thinks it has been "corrupted" where if we applied the same standards to it and the Koran, then the Koran is far less trustworthy than the Bible.

If he does, it won't work:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...st-revelations

[Cerebrum123]

If he does, it won't work:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...st-revelations

Which he will just flat out ignore. You might want to go and read through my conversation with him in the Legal Pluralism thread. He completely ignored all of that and continued to insist that the Koran teaches that the Bible is corrupt, despite the fact I showed him the Koran saying otherwise.

[siam]

@Christian3
Christianity is diverse. Personally, I find that fascinating...but it also means different Christians have different opinions on what they believe.
If you believe that the term "son of God" does not actually mean "son of God" but is simply a phrase used by the Bible to mean "creation" of God ---that is interesting (...and commendable)
If you believe human nature is inherently good and that original sin simply means "the potential to sin"----that too is interesting (...and commendable)

If you believe that "only begotten" (monogenes) means a father God (God the father) and a son God (son of God) ---and even "theotokos" (Mary, mother of God)---IMO, as a Muslim, I would see this as an error in understanding the nature of God....

The history of the usage of the Greek term monogenes:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogen%C4%93s

Monogenes has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".[1] Thus monogenēs (μονογενὴς) may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais, meaning unique and special.[2] Its Greek meaning is often applied to mean "one of a kind, one and only". Monogenēs (μονογενὴς) may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais, only child, or only legitimate child, special child, and also on its own as a noun; o monogenēs "the only one", or "the only legitimate child".[3]

The word is used in Hebrews 11:17-19 to describe Isaac, the son of Abraham. However Isaac was not the only-begotten son of Abraham, but was the chosen, having special virtue.


an explanation from a Christian site:---which argues "begotten" does not really mean begotten---its figurative...
https://bible.org/seriespage/3-son-g...otten-not-made
"If he is eternally God, then there was never a time he was literally begotten--which is why we know the language is figurative to describe his nature, and not his beginning."

God is One.
Do you worship God alone or have you created partners/parents/siblings/children?

[Christian3]

@Christian3
Christianity is diverse. Personally, I find that fascinating...but it also means different Christians have different opinions on what they believe.

If you believe that the term "son of God" does not actually mean "son of God" but is simply a phrase used by the Bible to mean "creation" of God ---that is interesting (...and commendable)
If you believe human nature is inherently good and that original sin simply means "the potential to sin"----that too is interesting (...and commendable)

I gave you the interpretation of "original sin" by a Rabbi, which I thought very good. My interpretation is simple: "as Adam went so did not whole human race" and I don't think you would disagree.

If you believe that "only begotten" (monogenes) means a father God (God the father) and a son God (son of God) ---and even "theotokos" (Mary, mother of God)---IMO, as a Muslim, I would see this as an error in understanding the nature of God....

Monogenes means unique, one of a kind. Jesus was unique and one of a kind; there is none like Him.

"Mother of God" is an unfortunate term in my opinion because it infers that Mary was the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit. I understand why Catholics use the term because Mary held the incarnate Word of God in her womb.

The history of the usage of the Greek term monogenes:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogen%C4%93s

Monogenes has two primary definitions, "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship" and "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind".[1] Thus monogenēs (μονογενὴς) may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais, meaning unique and special.[2] Its Greek meaning is often applied to mean "one of a kind, one and only". Monogenēs (μονογενὴς) may be used both as an adjective monogenēs pais, only child, or only legitimate child, special child, and also on its own as a noun; o monogenēs "the only one", or "the only legitimate child".[3]
an explanation from a Christian site:---which argues "begotten" does not really mean begotten---its figurative...

https://bible.org/seriespage/3-son-g...otten-not-made
"If he is eternally God, then there was never a time he was literally begotten--which is why we know the language is figurative to describe his nature, and not his beginning."

The word is used in Hebrews 11:17-19 to describe Isaac, the son of Abraham. However Isaac was not the only-begotten son of Abraham, but was the chosen, having special virtue.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexic...monogenes.html

The word monogenes was used for Isaac because he was unique and one of a kind in that he was the child of promise -- the covenant went through Isaac, so Abraham could have had 10 sons before Isaac and still Isaac would have been monogenes.

God is One.
Do you worship God alone or have you created partners/parents/siblings/children?

It is important for you to know that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist AS A MAN before He was born.

Christians worship one God and one God only; our God has no partners/parents/siblings/children.

The Trinity is Bblical:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm...ty/trinity.cfm

https://www.monergism.com/topics/trinity

What should worry you as a Muslim is that your Allah did not know what Christianity teaches about Jesus.

And the fact that the Qur'an confirms past revelations, so it confirms the deity of the Christ and His death and resurrection.

And believe in that I have sent down, confirming that which IS with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me. S. 2:41

And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers. S. 2:89 Shakir

And when they were told, 'Believe in that God has sent down,' they said, 'We believe in what was sent down on us'; and they disbelieve in what is beyond that, yet it is the truth confirming what IS with them. Say: 'Why then were you slaying the Prophets of God in former time, if you were believers?' S. 2:91

Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel -- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which IS before it and guidance and good news for the believers. S. 2:97 Shakir

And when there came to them an Apostle from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing. S. 2:101 Shakir

He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa

And when God took compact with the Prophets: 'That I have given you of Book and Wisdom; then there shall come to you a Messenger confirming what IS with you -- you shall believe in him and you shall help him; do you agree?' He said. 'And do you take My load on you on that condition?' They said, 'We do agree.' God said, 'Bear witness so, and I shall be with you among the witnesses.' S. 3:81

You who have been given the Book, believe in what We have sent down, confirming what IS with you, before We obliterate faces, and turn them upon their backs, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-men, and God's command is done. S. 4:47

And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what IS before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed; S. 5:48 Shakir

And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which IS before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly. S. 6:92 Shakir

This Koran could not have been forged apart from God; but it is a confirmation of what IS before it, and a distinguishing of the Book, wherein is no doubt, from the Lord of all Being. S. 10:37

In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what IS before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe. S. 12:111

And that We have revealed to thee of the Book is the truth, confirming what IS before it; God is aware of and sees His servants. S. 35:31

No indeed; but he brought the truth, and confirmed the Envoys. S. 37:37

Yet before it was the Book of Moses for a model and a mercy; and this is a Book confirming, in Arabic tongue, to warn the evildoers, and good tidings to the good-doers. S. 46:12

They said: O our people! we have listened to a Book revealed after Musa verifying that which IS before it, guiding to the truth and to a right path: S. 46:30 Shakir

Since our manuscripts pre-date the Qur'an by several hundred years, the Qur'an is confirming what we have in our hands.

[Christian3]

If you believe human nature is inherently good and that original sin simply means "the potential to sin"----that too is interesting (...and commendable)

[siam]

Diversity---Islam does have diversity---but doctrinally, Sunni Islam is the basis for the other 2 main groups, Shia and Sufi.
Among the groups you mentioned some can be classified into one of these 3 main categories---Sunni, Shia, Sufi
the others are a grey area---that is, doctrinaly, there are problems that make it somewhat difficult to classify them as Islam. For example---some NOI that have a black supremacy ideology, clash with the central Islamic concept/doctrine of Tawheed from which the Islamic principle of equality flows.
Other groups may have been influenced by the Quran or the Prophet but are not part of Islam/Muslim by their own self-definition, or by mutual agreement....such as Sikhs

There are legal ramifications for not being classified as "Muslim"---Because of overcrowding, Hajj is limited to Muslims only---and even that has limits as the Saudi have a quota for visas.

Monogenes---So, your belief is that Jesus(pbuh) is the begotten (unique/only) son of God? (as...the Nicene creed states).
As a Muslim, I would have to disagree with such a concept regardless of how the "son" comes/generates from the "father". One God IS NOT a Godhead of 3. One God is the One, Unique, Only God.
therefore--"Christians worship one God and one God only; our God has no partners/parents/siblings/children."---(IMO) this is the correct understanding of the nature of God---and if you give assent to this proposition---It is commendable.

"What should worry you as a Muslim is that your Allah did not know what Christianity teaches about Jesus."---This does not worry me at all---if there is an error---it is committed by Man not God. Thus---there is a possibility that it is Christians who are unaware of their own history......?.....

Past revelations---The Quran explains that Guidance (from God) was sent to all humanity throughout time (and...not just the biblical prophets)---therefore the Quran confirms past revelations BUT also corrects them in those areas they have gone astray/fallen into error. Therefore, as a Muslim, I have no problem confirming that which is true in the past revelations and distinguishing that which is in error. I can confirm the Christian truth that God is One (not 3) and yet point out that three is an incorrect understanding of the nature of the One God.

(Note: Correction of typo---Surah 2:26 mentioned in your post is actually Sura 2:36)
Adam---I agree with your insight that Adam = humanity. The Quran (and apparently the Hebrew Torah) have this characteristic of sometimes using a label (singular) for a group (plural). Therefore, the name/label Adam could also indicate a group (either a group of humans or humanity).
An advice that the Quran gives to its readers is that its verses should not be cut up---but that it (Quran) should be read as a whole. I agree with this myself---also, since the Quran is concise---more attention can be paid to the the structure, phrasing and word usage. Before the verse (2:36) mentioned above....there is verse 30 in which there is a conversation between God and the Angels----
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." (successive authority=Khalifa or Trustee)

This verse indicates that the nature of Man was already decided at the time he was created and had not much to do with Adam coming to Earth. Therefore verse 36 is stating what is an obvious state of events considering the nature of humanity that God created. (created with (limited) free-will). To put this verse in perspective---Angels do not have free-will.

The verse from Surah 7 is about the concept of human nature (Fitra). That all humanity, though forgetful, is born with the capacity to remember God. For example, Nature is a "revelation" (sign) from God just as the Quran is---and when humanity is in tune with nature, it has the capacity to feel awe---this is Fitra. This aspect is connected to the covenant (contract) with (all) humanity/Adam.
The Adamic covenant---the responsibility of Trusteeship (and its recompense---God-given rights)

[siam]

@Christian3
Previously u mentioned...
"Jesus is saying that the condition that we are in is not good enough; we must be born again. Our "flesh" is "original sin" and must be replaced by God's nature which we are given by the Spirit."
could you elaborate---and how does it relate to what u wrote......
"I agree. We are all responsible for our own sins. I wasn't in that Garden. I didn't eat the forbidden fruit! However, we are all suffering the consequences of the first sin. We were all born outside of the Garden and do not have access to the Tree of Life, which was also in the Garden.
We all have a sin nature. We all have a propensity to sin."

Also---what is your opinion/understanding of hypostasis and Ousia/homousis (?) sorry if I spelled it wrong.

[Christian3]

Monogenes---So, your belief is that Jesus(pbuh) is the begotten (unique/only) son of God? (as...the Nicene creed states).
As a Muslim, I would have to disagree with such a concept regardless of how the "son" comes/generates from the "father". One God IS NOT a Godhead of 3. One God is the One, Unique, Only God.

Yes, the One God is the One, Unique, Only God. Christians believe in One God and One God only. We also do not believe the Trinity is Allah, Jesus and Mary as the Qur'an says we do.

How could God's Word and God's Spirit be anything but God.?

The New Testament says that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God.

Doesn't your Allah create via his word? Doesn't he say "be" and it is? Did your Allah use another god to create? No. So Allah's word proceeds from him and creates.

Your Allah also has a spirit of his own:

Sura al-Ma'ida 5:110, "Allah said to Jesus, 'Jesus, son of Mary, remember the favour I had bestowed on you and your mother, how I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit, so that you preached to men in your cradle and in the prime of manhood."

Here the Holy Spirit of God is active and proceeding from God: "I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit."

Quote from: the theological scholar Al-Shaikh Muhammad al- Hariri al-Bayyumi who said, "The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Allah (Kitab al-Ruh wa Maiyyyatuha).

therefore--"Christians worship one God and one God only; our God has no partners/parents/siblings/children."---(IMO) this is the correct understanding of the nature of God---and if you give assent to this proposition---It is commendable.

This is what Christianity teaches.

"What should worry you as a Muslim is that your Allah did not know what Christianity teaches about Jesus."---This does not worry me at all---if there is an error---it is committed by Man not God. Thus---there is a possibility that it is Christians who are unaware of their own history......?.....

There is an error because your Allah did not know what Christianity teaches.

Past revelations---The Quran explains that Guidance (from God) was sent to all humanity throughout time (and...not just the biblical prophets)---therefore the Quran confirms past revelations BUT also corrects them in those areas they have gone astray/fallen into error. Therefore, as a Muslim, I have no problem confirming that which is true in the past revelations and distinguishing that which is in error. I can confirm the Christian truth that God is One (not 3) and yet point out that three is an incorrect understanding of the nature of the One God.

I don't think so. The Qur'an confirms what we have in our hands at the time the Qur'an was written and that is the Bible we have today. Also,

PICKTHAL (10:94): And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.

Here Allah directed Muhammad to consult with the Christians and the Jews when in doubt about what was revealed to them. How then can Muslims reject God's Holy Bible as a source of divine guidance and reject our input as to what the Scriptures mean?

Note that the Jews and Christians read their Scriptures. They had to have had them in order to read them.

PICKTHAL (004.163): Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms; (004.164): And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;

These verses say the Biblical Scriptures were inspired and many men were inspired to write them.

PICKTHAL (002.113) And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

And the Jews and Christians read and studied them so they had to have had authentic copies at that time. Allah recognizes this and calls what we have Scriptures.

PICKTHAL (003.093) All food was lawful unto the Children of Israel, save that which Israel forbade himself, (in days) before the Torah was revealed. Say: Produce the Torah and read it (unto us) if ye are truthful. (003.094) And whoever shall invent a falsehood after that concerning Allah, such will be wrong-doers

This verse came about when Muhammad asked for a scroll of the OT in order to settle a dispute. These verses clearly show authentic copies of the Torah were available in Muhammad's time. The same can be said for the Injeel (Gospel).

The Qur'an asks Christians and Jews to follow what has been revealed to them. See Surah 5:43-44, Surah 5:47, Surah 5:68, and Surah 62:5. The texts had to have been available to the Christians and Jews in order for them to follow them. How could they follow God's commandments if there were not available to them or were changed or corrupted?

002.136
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

Muslims are commanded to believe in God's Holy Bible. Notice that they must not make any distinction between the past revelations and the revelations in the Qur'an. The revelations of the Qur'an and the revelations of the Bible are to be accepted as equals.


004.150
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers, and seek to make distinction between Allah and His messengers, and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and seek to choose a way in between; 004.151: Such are disbelievers in truth; and for disbelievers We prepare a shameful doom. 004.152 But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful.

If Muslims do make a distinction between the Qur'an and God's Holy Bible it will result in a "shameful doom" and they will be judged as a disbeliever or an infidel.

040.070
PICKTHAL: Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, 040.071 When carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged 040.072 Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire.

And,

004.136
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.

These verses tell us that those who reject part of God's revelations will be thrown into the Fire (hell).

I have provided more than enough to show that the Qur'an confirms the Holy Bible available at the time of Muhammad. The manuscripts of the Bible we have today predate the Qur'an.

(Note: Correction of typo---Surah 2:26 mentioned in your post is actually Sura 2:36)
Adam---I agree with your insight that Adam = humanity. The Quran (and apparently the Hebrew Torah) have this characteristic of sometimes using a label (singular) for a group (plural). Therefore, the name/label Adam could also indicate a group (either a group of humans or humanity).
An advice that the Quran gives to its readers is that its verses should not be cut up---but that it (Quran) should be read as a whole. I agree with this myself---also, since the Quran is concise---more attention can be paid to the the structure, phrasing and word usage. Before the verse (2:36) mentioned above....there is verse 30 in which there is a conversation between God and the Angels----
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." (successive authority=Khalifa or Trustee)

This verse indicates that the nature of Man was already decided at the time he was created and had not much to do with Adam coming to Earth. Therefore verse 36 is stating what is an obvious state of events considering the nature of humanity that God created. (created with (limited) free-will). To put this verse in perspective---Angels do not have free-will.

So you think your Allah decides who will go to hell and who will not? Apparently so...

"Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the one who follows the right way; and whomsoever He causes to err, these are the losers. And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; ... Whomsoever Allah causes to err, there is no guide for him; and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on." S. 7:178-179, 186

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle as saying:

Verily Allah has fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in, and which he of necessity must commit (or there would be no escape from it)." Sahih Muslim #6421, 6422

That your Allah causes men to commit adultery proves he is not the God of Moses.

The verse from Surah 7 is about the concept of human nature (Fitra). That all humanity, though forgetful, is born with the capacity to remember God. For example, Nature is a "revelation" (sign) from God just as the Quran is---and when humanity is in tune with nature, it has the capacity to feel awe---this is Fitra. This aspect is connected to the covenant (contract) with (all) humanity/Adam.
The Adamic covenant---the responsibility of Trusteeship (and its recompense---God-given rights)

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Sin is not a result of forgetfulness, it is out and out rebellion against the commands of God.

[Christian3]

[QUOTE=siam;442680]@Christian3
Previously u mentioned...
"Jesus is saying that the condition that we are in is not good enough; we must be born again. Our "flesh" is "original sin" and must be replaced by God's nature which we are given by the Spirit."
could you elaborate---and how does it relate to what u wrote......
"I agree. We are all responsible for our own sins. I wasn't in that Garden. I didn't eat the forbidden fruit! However, we are all suffering the consequences of the first sin. We were all born outside of the Garden and do not have access to the Tree of Life, which was also in the Garden.
We all have a sin nature. We all have a propensity to sin

Also---what is your opinion/understanding of hypostasis and Ousia/homousis (?) sorry if I spelled it wrong.

Hypostatic Union is the union of the two natures (Divine and human) in the person of Jesus.

Homoousios (Gk.ὁμοούσιος) means "of the same substance," "of the same essence." Homo means "same" and ousia means "essence."

[siam]

The Quran confirms the truths of the previous scriptures and corrects the errors.
(that is why, in an attempt to prove your case, you should not cherry pick verses of the Quran with a Muslim who reads the whole Quran...)

For example---among the verses you quoted, there are several from Surah 4---but this one is not mentioned...
171. O people of the book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the truth. Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of God and his Word, which he bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from him: so believe in God and his messengers. Say not three, desist: it will be better for you: For God is One God: Glory be to him: Far exalted is he above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is God as a disposer of affairs.

Surah 4-150 to 152 are quoted in your post---in which the Quran advises not to make distinctions between messengers (which means Messiah Jesus (pbuh) is a messenger the same as all messengers) and 153 - 161 points out he errors that the people of the book have committed. 162 then adds nuance and explains that not all people of the book are in error, some who are knowledgeable know the truth revealed in their books and to the Prophet (pbuh).

---similarly, there are other verses of the Quran that are just as nuanced, where the Quran points out the truth and error of the people of the book.

The Torah also contains truth (Shema) that God is One (not 3). Yet, some people insist on not seeing this truth.

Nature of Jesus Christ---verse 4:171 (above) or 5:110 (your example).
Jesus Christ is the Word and Spirit from God.
In the Muslim context the "Word" is the sound/vibration of creation and the Quran explains it as "Be" (Kun). All of creation is created with this power/force (?)
The Spirit/Ruh is the "breath of God". (....what is interesting is that this term has no plural.) It is the force that animates/gives life. When Adam/humanity was created from lifeless clay, God's breath was put into it and given life/animated. (If I remember correctly this story is also in the Torah somewhere ?---the Hebrew word is Ruach).
The Quran is the speech of God.
Yet, Muslims worship only the One God---we do not worship any of his creations---neither the Quran, nor Nature, nor the Angels, nor any of the forces/powers used in the creation process.---and, most importantly, not any of his messengers.

What does it mean to truly understand the Truth and meaning of One God?---it means that all humanity worships the SAME God---the thought that there is your God and my God is incorrect---as that makes 2 Gods....yours and mine. It is the same God that answers the prayers of a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu. It is the One God that gives blessings, guidance, and sustenance to those who are good, to those who are bad, to those who are ignorant. There is only One God in existence. Judgement belongs to God and it is his right to test humanity and to dispense divine Justice.

Human nature---Human nature has limited free-will. Our "Self" inhabits a "body" (bio-chemical form) which has tendencies and desires.
You quoted surah 7---I would advice you to read the preceding and following verses---for example, 174 which says Thus do we explain the signs in detail; and perchance they may turn to us...and 182. Those who reject our signs, We will lead them step by step to ruin while they know not. 183. Respite I will grant unto them: for my plan is strong.
The Quranic concept of limited free-will is highly sophisticated. Humans have the right to make choices---but these choices have consequences (determined by God). Circumstances and the desires and tendencies of our human nature will create "Tests"/trials but these offer opportunities for us to make choices---Just as in the case of Prophet Adam. Whenever we err, we can choose to repent or go on in error. To those who choose error, God (most compassionate, most merciful) gives them respite so that during their lifetime they may have the opportunity to choose repentance. Those who repent when they have erred, God (most compassionate, most merciful) forgives them.
Did Jesus Christ also teach that God is most merciful, most compassionate?...God is love? according to Christianity?

God's forgiveness is not limited in time, geography, or chosen people. His mercy/grace extends to all humanity throughout time/space.

out of time, will get back later to interact with some of the other points you mentioned........

[Christian3]

The Quran confirms the truths of the previous scriptures and corrects the errors.
(that is why, in an attempt to prove your case, you should not cherry pick verses of the Quran with a Muslim who reads the whole Quran...)

For example---among the verses you quoted, there are several from Surah 4---but this one is not mentioned...
171. O people of the book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the truth. Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of God and his Word, which he bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from him: so believe in God and his messengers. Say not three, desist: it will be better for you: For God is One God: Glory be to him: Far exalted is he above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is God as a disposer of affairs.

Surah 4-150 to 152 are quoted in your post---in which the Quran advises not to make distinctions between messengers (which means Messiah Jesus (pbuh) is a messenger the same as all messengers) and 153 - 161 points out he errors that the people of the book have committed. 162 then adds nuance and explains that not all people of the book are in error, some who are knowledgeable know the truth revealed in their books and to the Prophet (pbuh).

---similarly, there are other verses of the Quran that are just as nuanced, where the Quran points out the truth and error of the people of the book.

The Torah also contains truth (Shema) that God is One (not 3). Yet, some people insist on not seeing this truth.

Nature of Jesus Christ---verse 4:171 (above) or 5:110 (your example).
Jesus Christ is the Word and Spirit from God.
In the Muslim context the "Word" is the sound/vibration of creation and the Quran explains it as "Be" (Kun). All of creation is created with this power/force (?)
The Spirit/Ruh is the "breath of God". (....what is interesting is that this term has no plural.) It is the force that animates/gives life. When Adam/humanity was created from lifeless clay, God's breath was put into it and given life/animated. (If I remember correctly this story is also in the Torah somewhere ?---the Hebrew word is Ruach).
The Quran is the speech of God.
Yet, Muslims worship only the One God---we do not worship any of his creations---neither the Quran, nor Nature, nor the Angels, nor any of the forces/powers used in the creation process.---and, most importantly, not any of his messengers.

What does it mean to truly understand the Truth and meaning of One God?---it means that all humanity worships the SAME God---the thought that there is your God and my God is incorrect---as that makes 2 Gods....yours and mine. It is the same God that answers the prayers of a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu. It is the One God that gives blessings, guidance, and sustenance to those who are good, to those who are bad, to those who are ignorant. There is only One God in existence. Judgement belongs to God and it is his right to test humanity and to dispense divine Justice.

Human nature---Human nature has limited free-will. Our "Self" inhabits a "body" (bio-chemical form) which has tendencies and desires.
You quoted surah 7---I would advice you to read the preceding and following verses---for example, 174 which says Thus do we explain the signs in detail; and perchance they may turn to us...and 182. Those who reject our signs, We will lead them step by step to ruin while they know not. 183. Respite I will grant unto them: for my plan is strong.
The Quranic concept of limited free-will is highly sophisticated. Humans have the right to make choices---but these choices have consequences (determined by God). Circumstances and the desires and tendencies of our human nature will create "Tests"/trials but these offer opportunities for us to make choices---Just as in the case of Prophet Adam. Whenever we err, we can choose to repent or go on in error. To those who choose error, God (most compassionate, most merciful) gives them respite so that during their lifetime they may have the opportunity to choose repentance. Those who repent when they have erred, God (most compassionate, most merciful) forgives them.
Did Jesus Christ also teach that God is most merciful, most compassionate?...God is love? according to Christianity?

God's forgiveness is not limited in time, geography, or chosen people. His mercy/grace extends to all humanity throughout time/space.

out of time, will get back later to interact with some of the other points you mentioned........

The fact that Jesus is the Messiah makes Him more than just a messenger.

Exactly why do you refuse to believe Christians don't believe in one God? Don't you know that the false claim that Christians worship more than one God is costly Christians their lives?

[Christian3]

The Quran confirms the truths of the previous scriptures and corrects the errors.
(that is why, in an attempt to prove your case, you should not cherry pick verses of the Quran with a Muslim who reads the whole Quran...)

For example---among the verses you quoted, there are several from Surah 4---but this one is not mentioned...
171. O people of the book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the truth. Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of God and his Word, which he bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from him: so believe in God and his messengers. Say not three, desist: it will be better for you: For God is One God: Glory be to him: Far exalted is he above having a son. To him belong all things in the heavens and the earth. And enough is God as a disposer of affairs.

Surah 4-150 to 152 are quoted in your post---in which the Quran advises not to make distinctions between messengers (which means Messiah Jesus (pbuh) is a messenger the same as all messengers) and 153 - 161 points out he errors that the people of the book have committed. 162 then adds nuance and explains that not all people of the book are in error, some who are knowledgeable know the truth revealed in their books and to the Prophet (pbuh).

---similarly, there are other verses of the Quran that are just as nuanced, where the Quran points out the truth and error of the people of the book.

The Torah also contains truth (Shema) that God is One (not 3). Yet, some people insist on not seeing this truth.

Nature of Jesus Christ---verse 4:171 (above) or 5:110 (your example).
Jesus Christ is the Word and Spirit from God.
In the Muslim context the "Word" is the sound/vibration of creation and the Quran explains it as "Be" (Kun). All of creation is created with this power/force (?)
The Spirit/Ruh is the "breath of God". (....what is interesting is that this term has no plural.) It is the force that animates/gives life. When Adam/humanity was created from lifeless clay, God's breath was put into it and given life/animated. (If I remember correctly this story is also in the Torah somewhere ?---the Hebrew word is Ruach).
The Quran is the speech of God.
Yet, Muslims worship only the One God---we do not worship any of his creations---neither the Quran, nor Nature, nor the Angels, nor any of the forces/powers used in the creation process.---and, most importantly, not any of his messengers.

What does it mean to truly understand the Truth and meaning of One God?---it means that all humanity worships the SAME God---the thought that there is your God and my God is incorrect---as that makes 2 Gods....yours and mine. It is the same God that answers the prayers of a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu. It is the One God that gives blessings, guidance, and sustenance to those who are good, to those who are bad, to those who are ignorant. There is only One God in existence. Judgement belongs to God and it is his right to test humanity and to dispense divine Justice.

Human nature---Human nature has limited free-will. Our "Self" inhabits a "body" (bio-chemical form) which has tendencies and desires.
You quoted surah 7---I would advice you to read the preceding and following verses---for example, 174 which says Thus do we explain the signs in detail; and perchance they may turn to us...and 182. Those who reject our signs, We will lead them step by step to ruin while they know not. 183. Respite I will grant unto them: for my plan is strong.
The Quranic concept of limited free-will is highly sophisticated. Humans have the right to make choices---but these choices have consequences (determined by God). Circumstances and the desires and tendencies of our human nature will create "Tests"/trials but these offer opportunities for us to make choices---Just as in the case of Prophet Adam. Whenever we err, we can choose to repent or go on in error. To those who choose error, God (most compassionate, most merciful) gives them respite so that during their lifetime they may have the opportunity to choose repentance. Those who repent when they have erred, God (most compassionate, most merciful) forgives them.
Did Jesus Christ also teach that God is most merciful, most compassionate?...God is love? according to Christianity?

God's forgiveness is not limited in time, geography, or chosen people. His mercy/grace extends to all humanity throughout time/space.

out of time, will get back later to interact with some of the other points you mentioned........

The Qur'an was not translated into Arabic until about 900AD. Muslims did not consider the Bible "corrupted" before then. Why? Because they knew the Qur'an confirmed past revelations.

It wasn't until about 1100AD when Muslims had a chance to evaluate the Bible and the Qur'an and found out the Qur'an did not confirm past revelations, but contradicted it that they had a choice: either the author of the Qur'an made a mistake or the Christians and Jews changed their Scriptures and they chose the latter.

The Quran declares the Bible to be a true revelation of God and demands faith in the Bible. Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11

All these above texts presuppose the availability of the true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad's day. Sura 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71

A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God. Sura 2:136; 4:136; 29:46

The Quran makes no distinction between God's revelations Sura 2:136

The Qur'an claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God. Sura 6:34; 10:34

Why Do Muslims Believe The Bible Is Corrupted?

In 1064, Ibn-Khazem, FIRST charged that the Bible had been corrupted and the Bible falsified. This charge was to defend Islam against Christianity because Ibn-Khazem came upon differences and contradictions between the Bible and the Quran. Believing, by faith that the Quran was true, the Bible must then be false. He said, "Since the Quran must be true it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians after the time of Muhammad." His argument was not based on any evidence or historical facts but only on his personal faith, reasoning and desire to safeguard the Quran. This led him to teach that, "The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which God has left intact as argument against them."

Many great MUSLIM teachers DO NOT believe the Bible has been corrupted and ACCEPT the authenticity of our PRESENT New Testament texts.

Ali al-Tabari (died 855) accepted the Gospel texts
Amr al-Ghakhiz (869) " " " "
BUKHARI (810-870) " " " " (he gathered some of the earliest tradition of Islam quoted the Quran itself to support his belief in the text of the Bible Sura 3:72,78)
Al-Mas'udi (956) " " " "
Abu Ali Husain Bin Sina (1037)" " "
AL-GHAZZALI (1111) " " " " (probably the greatest Muslim scholar he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings)
Ibn-Khaldun (1406) " " " " " " (he lived after Ibn-Khazem but did not accept his teachings but rather believed the earlier Islamic teachers.)

Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan, founder of the Aligarh College "In the opinion of us Mohammedans it is not proved that corruption (tahrif-i-lafzi)...was practiced."
Fakhruddin Razi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, a nephew of Muhammed, "The Jews and early Christians were suspected of altering the text of the Taurat and Injil; but in the opinion of eminent doctors and theologians it was not practicable thus to corrupt the text, because those Scriptures were generally known and widely circulated, having been handed down from generation to generation." (bible.ca/islam)

Who do you believe, the Qur'an or Ibn-Khazem?

[Christian3]

This really is the Prophet who was to come into the world![b] to the mountain by Himself.

Act 3:22,23 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me

[Christian3]

[Christian3]

Since Jesus spent most of His time while on earth preaching His gospel to the Jews and since Jesus called Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, then where does that leave Muhammad whose book denies the Gospel of Jesus? Nowhere.