Muhammad mentioned by name in the Song of Songs?

[siam]

As I explained before---The Muslim belief is that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is not the author of the Quran....therefore it does not matter if he heard anything or did not hear anything---that is only relevant as far as the ahadith are concerned. The sayings of the Prophet are his opinions---they are not revelation. The Quran is not the personal opinion of the Prophet---it is revelation.

There are other writings such as the Israeliyat and others that record the beleifs/opinions/stories of the Christians and Jews of the time. These can be investigated to see what the condition/situation was. Recorded among these are the sayings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) that were prevalent in the various Christian communities of the area.

some Arabic works translated into English---
https://sandala.org/wp-content/uploa...k-on-Water.pdf
https://www.amazon.com/Muslim-Jesus-.../dp/0674011155

As for history---Only God knows with certainty as he is the only existing witness. What is most important is the point/message that the Quran is pointing to.

[siam]

@ Christian3

The points you have brought up, in particular, the comparison of stories is interesting and I thank you for the effort. I can understand that you are trying to persuade me towards a perspective that seems important to you. I hope that you can come to appreciate that the Christian narrative has its own arch/storyline that is based on certain presumptions. The various pieces of the story can only make sense if the presumptions are first given assent. The elements or pieces of the Christian meta-narrative begin (perhaps?) with the fall of (Prophet) Adam and the original sin/death which leads to crucifixion/resurrection and then to the themes of son of God/salvation etc. (right?)
The Jewish and Muslim meta-narrative is different---God forgives (Prophet) Adam---If this is the starting presumption---that God forgives whomever he wishes---then all the rest of the Christian narrative simply does not fit into the overall framework---and trying to fit it in is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. So...when Christians try to persuade that the Jews killed Jesus Christ---it simply makes him a false Prophet for Muslims (and probably for Jews as well)....its counterproductive..isn't it?

If God forgives as he pleases, whenever he pleases---there is no need for all the elaborate and confusing events of the Christian meta-narrative. The Quranic stories support the overall themes of the Quranic paradigm/world-view and make sense within that framework.

From the Muslim/Quranic perspective, both Christians and Muslims worship the same One God. Some may want to deny this, but, either way, we are all God' creations and brothers in humanity. Our differences provide us with the opportunity to grow in tolerance, respect, and compassion and our similarities can help co-operation for the benefit of all of God's creations?......

[tabibito]

[quote]From the Muslim/Quranic perspective, both Christians and Muslims worship the same One God. [quote] "Blessed be Allah the munificent ... who neither begat nor was begotten." would indicate otherwise.

[Christian3]

As I explained before---The Muslim belief is that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is not the author of the Quran....therefore it does not matter if he heard anything or did not hear anything---that is only relevant as far as the ahadith are concerned. The sayings of the Prophet are his opinions---they are not revelation. The Quran is not the personal opinion of the Prophet---it is revelation.

There are other writings such as the Israeliyat and others that record the beleifs/opinions/stories of the Christians and Jews of the time. These can be investigated to see what the condition/situation was. Recorded among these are the sayings of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) that were prevalent in the various Christian communities of the area.

some Arabic works translated into English---
https://sandala.org/wp-content/uploa...k-on-Water.pdf
https://www.amazon.com/Muslim-Jesus-.../dp/0674011155

As for history---Only God knows with certainty as he is the only existing witness. What is most important is the point/message that the Quran is pointing to.

I know Muslims believe Muhammad did not write the Qur'an, but a lot of people believe he did based on what we have discussed.

We know that Jesus said many things that were not written down, but nothing He said that was not recorded would contradict what Jesus did say.

[Christian3]

@ Christian3

The points you have brought up, in particular, the comparison of stories is interesting and I thank you for the effort. I can understand that you are trying to persuade me towards a perspective that seems important to you. I hope that you can come to appreciate that the Christian narrative has its own arch/storyline that is based on certain presumptions. The various pieces of the story can only make sense if the presumptions are first given assent. The elements or pieces of the Christian meta-narrative begin (perhaps?) with the fall of (Prophet) Adam and the original sin/death which leads to crucifixion/resurrection and then to the themes of son of God/salvation etc. (right?)
The Jewish and Muslim meta-narrative is different---God forgives (Prophet) Adam---If this is the starting presumption---that God forgives whomever he wishes---then all the rest of the Christian narrative simply does not fit into the overall framework---and trying to fit it in is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. So...when Christians try to persuade that the Jews killed Jesus Christ---it simply makes him a false Prophet for Muslims (and probably for Jews as well)....its counterproductive..isn't it?

If God forgives as he pleases, whenever he pleases---there is no need for all the elaborate and confusing events of the Christian meta-narrative. The Quranic stories support the overall themes of the Quranic paradigm/world-view and make sense within that framework.

From the Muslim/Quranic perspective, both Christians and Muslims worship the same One God. Some may want to deny this, but, either way, we are all God' creations and brothers in humanity. Our differences provide us with the opportunity to grow in tolerance, respect, and compassion and our similarities can help co-operation for the benefit of all of God's creations?......

Original sin is not just a Christian idea, it is God's:

Genesis 8:21, "Never again will I doom the earth because of man, since the devisings of man's mind are evil from his youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living being as I have done."

Jeremiah 13:23, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?"

Jeremiah 5:1, the Lord said to his faithful prophet, "Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem, look around and consider, search through her squares. If you can find but one person who deals honestly and seeks the truth, I will forgive this city." But Jeremiah could not find even one godly person.

Psalm.58:3: "the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies."

Ecclesiastes 7: 20. For there is no righteous man on earth who does good and sins not.

There is no record of Adam asking forgiveness and it was granted in the Bible.

However, both the Qur'an and the Bible record Adam's sin affected all mankind because we were thrown out of the Garden with Adam, so we are suffering the consequences of Adam's sin.

The prevailing attitude among Jewish scholars is that people sin as Adam and Eve sinned not because they sinned. (Rabbi Telushkin)

The question is how do we get right with God; how do we again get to eat from the Tree of Eternity/Tree of Life?

[Christian3]

[QUOTE=tabibito;441589][quote]From the Muslim/Quranic perspective, both Christians and Muslims worship the same One God.

"Blessed be Allah the munificent ... who neither begat nor was begotten." would indicate otherwise.

[Cerebrum123]

[QUOTE=Christian3;441830][QUOTE=tabibito;441589]Mohammed thought that in order for Allah to be a father he must have engaged in sexual intercourse. Notice also that adoption is forbidden in Islam.

Oh, and it's pretty clear that Mohammed was at least partially responsible for the content of the Koran, otherwise we wouldn't have that passage about his dinner guests.

Yusuf Ali Surah 33:53 O ye who believe! Enter not the Prophet's houses,- until leave is given you,- for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation: but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk. Such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet: he is ashamed to dismiss you, but Allah is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth. And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah.s Messenger, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in Allah.s sight an enormity.

Apparently small talk with Mohammed is a serious offence in Islam.

[siam]

I know Muslims believe Muhammad did not write the Qur'an, but a lot of people believe he did based on what we have discussed.

We know that Jesus said many things that were not written down, but nothing He said that was not recorded would contradict what Jesus did say.

What others believe or not, is irrelevant to my beliefs---some people believe Jesus (pbuh) is myth---how relevant is their view to your beliefs?
Being exposed to different ideas is helpful in determining the what and the why we give assent to some premises or presumptions.

Christianity is diverse---it was diverse since its early days. Therefore, there have been, and still are, many ways to interpret the teachings of Jesus Christ?

[siam]

Original sin is not just a Christian idea, it is God's:

I agree that is the Christian interpretation.

The Quran says---

Sahih International: Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

Pickthall: Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.

Yusuf Ali: Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

(to get the full story read the preceding and following verses---Surah 7 also has other details of the story)

God creates humanity to be his Trustees on earth---Obviously, this responsibility cannot be accomplished unless Adam (humans) are on earth--right? Therefore, God tests Adam (humans) on their free-will.
(IMO) If a choice is made---then free-will is fully developed---but if no choice were made, it would probably mean free-will was not fully developed yet. That is why a choice had to be offered (and Satan plays his role)---otherwise it would not be a test.
But when Adam becomes aware of his mistake and repents---God forgives because God is most merciful, most compassionate (at least according to the Quran/Islam).

The Jewish and Muslim view of human nature is that humanity has an inherent capacity for goodness.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...f-original-sin
The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.

The question that preoccupies Muslims/Islam is what can humanity do for God...(to please God.) for all that God does for humanity/human being. The answer to this is in the Quran---God's will = to have right belief that leads to right intentions that promote right actions for all of God's creations.

[siam]

[QUOTE=Christian3;441830][QUOTE=tabibito;441589]@Christian3
If this reasoning is applied---then (Prophet) Adam is also the son of God because he was also created by God saying "Be". As the Quran explains---NEITHER Adam nor Jesus are sons of God.
Nor are you and me sons of God---even though our existence cannot occur without God's will.

[Christian3]

[QUOTE=siam;441926][QUOTE=Christian3;441830]

@Christian3
If this reasoning is applied---then (Prophet) Adam is also the son of God because he was also created by God saying "Be". As the Quran explains---NEITHER Adam nor Jesus are sons of God.
Nor are you and me sons of God---even though our existence cannot occur without God's will.

Adam is called the son of God in the New Testament:

"son of Adam, son of God."

The Qur'an also says there are many differences between Adam and Jesus.

Adam was created; Jesus was conceived, which is a major difference.

[Christian3]

What others believe or not, is irrelevant to my beliefs---some people believe Jesus (pbuh) is myth---how relevant is their view to your beliefs?
Being exposed to different ideas is helpful in determining the what and the why we give assent to some premises or presumptions.

Christianity is diverse---it was diverse since its early days. Therefore, there have been, and still are, many ways to interpret the teachings of Jesus Christ?

You are trying to avoid that the author of the Qur'an copied from folklore.

What about the Seven Sleepers?

[Christian3]

I agree that is the Christian interpretation.

The Quran says---

Sahih International: Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

Pickthall: Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.

Yusuf Ali: Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

(to get the full story read the preceding and following verses---Surah 7 also has other details of the story)

God creates humanity to be his Trustees on earth---Obviously, this responsibility cannot be accomplished unless Adam (humans) are on earth--right? Therefore, God tests Adam (humans) on their free-will.
(IMO) If a choice is made---then free-will is fully developed---but if no choice were made, it would probably mean free-will was not fully developed yet. That is why a choice had to be offered (and Satan plays his role)---otherwise it would not be a test.
But when Adam becomes aware of his mistake and repents---God forgives because God is most merciful, most compassionate (at least according to the Quran/Islam).

The Jewish and Muslim view of human nature is that humanity has an inherent capacity for goodness.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...f-original-sin
The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.

The question that preoccupies Muslims/Islam is what can humanity do for God...(to please God.) for all that God does for humanity/human being. The answer to this is in the Quran---God's will = to have right belief that leads to right intentions that promote right actions for all of God's creations.

I gave you the definition of what concept of original sin is. Babies are born sinless, but given time they will all sin and I don't think you can deny that.


See the third chapter of John. Jesus explains to Nicodemus that in order for man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, he must be born again. "I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Jesus is saying that the condition that we are in is not good enough; we must be born again. Our "flesh" is "original sin" and must be replaced by God's nature which we are given by the Spirit.

[Cerebrum123]

I gave you the definition of what concept of original sin is. Babies are born sinless, but given time they will all sin and I don't think you can deny that.


See the third chapter of John. Jesus explains to Nicodemus that in order for man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, he must be born again. "I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Jesus is saying that the condition that we are in is not good enough; we must be born again. Our "flesh" is "original sin" and must be replaced by God's nature which we are given by the Spirit.

He's going to ignore all of the points you bring up from the Bible because he thinks it has been "corrupted" where if we applied the same standards to it and the Koran, then the Koran is far less trustworthy than the Bible.

[Christian3]

[QUOTE=siam;441926][QUOTE=Christian3;441830]

@Christian3
If this reasoning is applied---then (Prophet) Adam is also the son of God because he was also created by God saying "Be". As the Quran explains---NEITHER Adam nor Jesus are sons of God.
Nor are you and me sons of God---even though our existence cannot occur without God's will.