The best I've ever been able to get from studying what Jews believe; Christianity is to a Jewish person what Mormonism is to a Christian. a cult. sw please correct me if i am wrong.
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World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.
This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostThe best I've ever been able to get from studying what Jews believe; Christianity is to a Jewish person what Mormonism is to a Christian. a cult. sw please correct me if i am wrong.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostInitially the converts to Christianity were dominantly Jews with a few Greeks and Romans.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostOver the next ~200 years conversion shifted to Asia Minor Greece and Rome conversion shifted due to Paul's travels and efforts outside Israel.
A personal observation: Us westerners have a very blinkered view of history. Rome was not the centre of the universe as many believe. It controlled a relatively small area of the world mainly in west Europe and North Africa. In the east it was at constant war with the Armenian and Parthian empires. People tend to forget there were apostles sent to the east and south by the Jamesian church in Jerusalem...but their histories are rarely discussed or studied.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis conversion after about 200 AD the dominant growth in Christianity was among Romans and Greeks. By ~600 AD the only Jewish Christians were isolated minority populations on the edge of Christianity. As this shift took place Hellenist and Roman influence began to dominate Christianity resulting in Trinitarian beliefs, and a pantheon of Divinities including angels, devils, and demons depicted in statues.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe way I view the history of religion is the trend in Revelation from God is to Reveal and affirm simple Monotheism (Unitarian God). The tendency of human influence is to corrupt Monotheism with variations of polytheism, such as; Henotheism, Binatarianism, Trinitarianism. The reaffirmation of pure Monotheism reasserted itself in Revelation of Islam and the Baha'i Faith
Imu, in the history of the Baha'i Faith, its founders and followers have been a particular target for persecution by those of the Islamic faith.
Consider my perspective: Moses tells us that God created "man" in his image, in his likeness. Male and female created he them. These two were commanded to go forth and populate the earth. It is also said that though they are numerically two they were to be one. We find a similar equation in the NT particularly in A.John's gospel and A.Paul's letters concerning those who wish to follow in the footsteps of Christ. Now, imu, the Christian (Trinitarian/Binitarian) target is to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he sent to save the world. At John 17:3 which I've just paraphrased the operative word is "ginōskō" which is inadequately translated "know". Ginosko calls on us to garner the type of knowledge that is only accessible from an intimate relationship, and that relationship is primarily with the Son, through whom we get to know the only true God who is the Son's Father. The biblical metaphor is we Christians are the bride of Christ, and through our betrothal are adopted by God the Father into a familial relationship with him. To me, it is a much more practical and beneficial approach than contemplating something that is introspective, self-satiating, unknowable and detached from us personally (the core of monotheistic belief).
I'll assume we agree to disagree...Last edited by apostoli; 08-18-2015, 09:02 PM.
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Originally posted by apostoli View PostVery true, but they weren't Palestinian Jews. They were Jews heavily influenced by Helenistic thought (especally the educated Jews).
As you should know from historical evidence (non NT), there were significant Christian communities in the major Roman cities and throughout the trading routes of the Aegean and the Mediterranean within 30 years of Jesus crucifixion. Hence Nero's and successive emperors persecutions specifically of Christians in various townships especially in North Africa. In this regard I often think of an Australian politicians advice "History shows that if you suppress a movement it will grow! If you want to kill it, ignore it!"..A personal observation: Us westerners have a very blinkered view of history. Rome was not the centre of the universe as many believe. It controlled a relatively small area of the world mainly in west Europe and North Africa. In the east it was at constant war with the Armenian and Parthian empires. People tend to forget there were apostles sent to the east and south by the Jamesian church in Jerusalem...but their histories are rarely discussed or studied.
You will find "a pantheon of Divinities including angels, devils, and demons depicted in" Jewish art and prose dated to the time of the Babylonian exile and even before. In fact, it is documented (Talmud?) that n Jewish practice there was sacrifice to demons eg: the escape goat, which was driven off a cliff as a sacrifice to the desert Jin.
Observably, the reaffirmation of pure monotheism is very destructive, and has led to wars amoungst monotheists, genocide etc etc. (as is currently evidenced by ISIS/ISIL/the Taliban and of course the politics of Israel.
Imu, in the history of the Baha'i Faith, its founders and followers have been a particular target for persecution by those of the Islamic faith.
Consider my perspective: Moses tells us that God created "man" in his image, in his likeness. Male and female created he them. These two were commanded to go forth and populate the earth. It is also said that though they are numerically two they were to be one. We find a similar equation in the NT particularly in A.John's gospel and A.Paul's letters concerning those who wish to follow in the footsteps of Christ. Now, imu, the Christian (Trinitarian/Binitarian) target is to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he sent to save the world. At John 17:3 which I've just paraphrased the operative word is "ginōskō" which is inadequately translated "know". Ginosko calls on us to garner the type of knowledge that is only accessible from an intimate relationship, and that relationship is primarily with the Son, through whom we get to know the only true God who is the Son's Father. The biblical metaphor is we Christians are the bride of Christ, and through our betrothal are adopted by God the Father into a familial relationship with him. To me, it is a much more practical and beneficial approach than contemplating something that is introspective, self-satiating, unknowable and detached from us personally (the core of monotheistic belief).
I'll assume we agree to disagree...
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostThe best I've ever been able to get from studying what Jews believe; Christianity is to a Jewish person what Mormonism is to a Christian. a cult. sw please correct me if i am wrong.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI believe I have been misunderstood.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe majority of Jews were Palestinian Monotheistic Jews...
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe majority of Jews were Palestinian Monotheistic Jews as demonstrated by the response and misunderstanding to Jesus in the testimony of the NT.
As we know from secular history the Temple had been badly corrupted since Jonathan Maccabee claimed the high priesthood under the pretense of the order of Melchizedek. By Jesus' time the Temple and priesthood was 100% corrupt. Especially whilst it was under the control of Annas the high priest (who had been dethroned by the Romans for his indiscriminate execution of "heretics"). In the Talmud, Annas and his family of high priests (cp. Luke 3:2; John 18:13,24; Acts 4:8) are cursed in particularly strong terms. They had the commerce of the Temple completely sewn up - from supply of the sacrifices (farming & retail) to money changing (foreign currency couldn't be used to purchase the sacrifices, one had to buy shekels from the Temple).
According to A.John it is the high priest Annas that trialed Jesus (even though the Sanhedrin had been illegally assembled) and then had him taken to the Roman delegate, the high priest Caiaphas (Annas' son-in-law). Because of Annas' lack of justice, the Romans had prohibited the Jews from conducting executions. So Caiaphas had to appeal to Pilate for the "Sanhedrin's" verdict to be carried out.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe Jews that were attracted to Jesus in Asia Minor were most likely heavily influenced by Hellenistic thought, as was Paul and possibly a minority of Jews in Palestine.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI believe you dating of Nero is incorrect. Nero was not born in 30 AD
I'm not aware of A.Paul ever traveling through Rome. He had intended to go there, to raise funds for an expedition to Spain but was interrupted in his mission by king Aggripa, and because of A.Paul's appeal to Ceasar was sent to Rome (see Acts 25-28). He was under house arrest until his martyrdom (cp. Acts 28:16,30).
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI do not disagree with this, but by far the majority of Christians by the time of Nero, and subject to persecution were converted Romans from the travels of Paul.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe issues of the politics of Israel, ISIS/ISIL/ the Taliban, and the wars of the Middle East were not a question of Monotheism.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostViolence among religions has a long brutal history, wars and persecution going back to the Crusades, history of Christianity and Judaism going back to the earliest known records. This is not an effective argument either way.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe question of Monotheism was never an issue in the persecution of the Baha'is in the past nor in the present.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe Trinity is not the result of a Biblical metaphor.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostMoses proposed nothing more than Monotheism.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is possible that an interpretation of the book of Exodus can support Henotheism, but NOT a Trinitarian belief in God.
In early Christian literature the Son of God, the Logos who became incarnated and was named Jesus (Yeshua), was he who spoke to Moses and supped with Abraham...Last edited by apostoli; 08-20-2015, 12:02 AM.
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Originally posted by Scorching Wizard View PostJudaism generally doesn't view Christianity as a cult. A cult is a organization that is destructive to its own member through brainwashing, isolation from friends and family, and stealing all their property. Christianity is just a completely different religion from Judaism, the same as Islam is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is worse, Judaism considers Christianity as a heresy, and Jesus a heretic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism
His love of peace likewise prevented him from making any attacks against the "Christian heresy" ("minut") that was then gaining ground. He was tolerant even to the Jewish Christians, though they often annoyed him; and he forbore cursing one of them, pronouncing rather Ps. cxlv. 9, "God's mercies extend over all His creatures" (Ber. 7a; 'Ab. Zarah 4b). His love of justice and his fear lest the innocent should suffer on account of the guilty (Yoma 19b) led him to pronounce against the custom then prevailing of removing from office a reader who, by omitting certain benedictions, had aroused the suspicion of heresy (Yer. Ber. 9c).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...-joshua-b-leviאָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes, the Jews believe in salvation, but they do not believe in a Trinitarian God, nor that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, neither do the Baha'is believe this as a Doctrine defining the nature God, which cannot be defined.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWell, yeah. Because if they did then they would be Christians.Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI guess you taking the egocentric view that only Christians believe in salvation
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The reality is most Theists (in the broad definition of the word including Buddhists) believe in salvation, but of course different beliefs define it differently.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostNot necessarily. Jewish attitudes, and Judaism itself, is never as monolithic as you typically represent it. Even as late as the first half of the third century, we find remarkable tolerance of Christians and even Jewish Christians by some, for example, Joshua bev Levi, one of my heros:
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostUm... no. But I would hope that I would actually have to spell it out for you that if Jews or Baha'is believed in a Trinitarian God and that Jesus Christ was God incarnate that they would by definition be Christians.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAre you dealing in hypothetical fairy tales? Back to reality Turkey. The above does not make sense. Your IFins' are nonsense.
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIn early Christian history Jews and Christians in some ways got along, but this does not represent the view of Judaism and the majority of the Jews in the period, which considered Jesus a heretic, and Christianity a heresy...Last edited by apostoli; 08-21-2015, 10:17 AM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is worse, Judaism considers Christianity as a heresy, and Jesus a heretic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism
[cite=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy_in_Judaism]
The very first sentence reads "Jewish heretics (minim, from minuth Hebrew for "heretic") are Jewish individuals..." Heretics are individual Jews that believe certain things. There isn't a single place in that linked article that says that Judaism considers Christianity to be a heresy. All the references to "he" are to Jews.
Judaism has never attempted to control the beliefs of non-Jews.Last edited by Scorching Wizard; 08-21-2015, 12:27 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAre you dealing in hypothetical fairy tales? Back to reality Turkey. The above does not make sense. Your IFins' are nonsense.
if Jews or Baha'is believed in a Trinitarian God and that Jesus Christ was God incarnate that they would by definition be Christians.
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