Papa Francis prays facing Mecca in mosque

[Paprika]

Then why did your OP only address the side issue of the direction he was facing?

My OP is titled 'Papa Francis prays facing Mecca in mosque'.

Seems to me the bigger and more pertinent question is whether he should have been praying in a mosque in the first place.

Indeed, but given the massive disagreement on the issue, the first step is to find some commonality and then work from there.

[shunyadragon]

Or wait, maybe I do - is it because you disagree with my view that what the Muslims worship is not our God?

Not much different than the fact that Jews do not believe Christians worship the same God. The Muslims consider the Pentateuch as scripture, and their God to be the same as the Hebrew God.

[robrecht]

I'm not sure how on earth you got from my post that idea that Muslims worship Mecca.

Or wait, maybe I do - is it because you disagree with my view that what the Muslims worship is not our God?

That, and also trying to make sense of your accusation of idolatry.

[robrecht]

Not much different then the fact that Jews do not believe Christians worship the same God.

than, not then

[Paprika]

That, and also trying to make sense of your accusation of idolatry.

Did I accuse the Pope of idolatry? What I did say is that "it is a poor witness to be seen as participating in idolatry" - now since the Muslim Allah isn't our God, this should follow quite easily.

[robrecht]

Did I accuse the Pope of idolatry? What I did say is that "it is a poor witness to be seen as participating in idolatry" - now since the Muslim Allah isn't our God, this should follow quite easily.

Same difference. I still needed to try and figure out what it is about Islam in general and praying while facing Mecca specifically that is supposedly idolatrous. In my opinion, having a different view of God or how God has acted in history is not necessarily idolatrous.

[Paprika]

Same difference. I still needed to try and figure out what it is about Islam in general and praying while facing Mecca specifically that is supposedly idolatrous. In my opinion, having a different view of God or how God has acted in history is not necessarily idolatrous.

My reasons are sketched out here.

I hope that you will likewise do me the favour of explaining and justifying your own view.

[robrecht]

My reasons are sketched out here.

I hope that you will likewise do me the favour of explaining and justifying your own view.

I do not know a lot about Islam, but I do know that they have a different, low christology, and believe that God also acted in history through Mohammed. I don't believe that but I don't think that means they are idolaters. When I think of idolatry, I think of worshipping something man-made or something created instead of the creator. I don't think Muslims do this; rather I think their focus on the oneness and transcendence of God is pretty much the opposite of idolatry.

[Paprika]

When I think of idolatry, I think of worshipping something man-made or something created instead of the creator.

So you believe that only the material can be idolised?

[robrecht]

He was speaking of a new covenant with the Messiah. That would embrace all the nations.

We call that Christianity.

I agree with this, of course, but I think (deutero-)Isaiah was also speaking to the Jews of his day about their return from exile and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem, which notably had a court of the Gentiles. It would not have been fair for Jesus to use this verse against the Jews of his own time, if Isaiah had only been speaking of a later reality. From the time of Abraham, Israel had a mission to the Gentiles which Jesus came to fulfill, but that does not mean that no one before Jesus was supposed to take up this mission.

[robrecht]

So you believe that only the material can be idolised?

No, I did not say that. I said something man-made or something created. God has not only created material realities.

[Paprika]

No, I did not say that. I said something man-made or something created. God has not only created material realities.

Which leads me to the next question: can man, in his great imagination, create gods to worship, gods that are non-material?

[robrecht]

Which leads me to the next question: can man, in his great imagination, create gods to worship, gods that are non-material?

Sure. I think most of us probably do that to some extent.

[Paprika]

Sure. I think most of us probably do that to some extent.

So how do you know that Muslims have not done so?

[robrecht]

So how do you know that Muslims have not done so?

I am sure many have, just as have many Christians, Jews, and others.