Papa Francis prays facing Mecca in mosque

[Paprika]

In a lot of public buildings, like churches and auditoriums, it makes it far more likely when you are engaging in the group activity the building is there for.

But not necessarily so, we agree. But there is also another point of agreement: Pope Francis was engaging in the group activity the building existed for: prayer to Allah.

[Adrift]

Could you then explain the difference? You've been saying that "purposefully praying towards Mecca as part of inter-religious dialogue" is bad, but also that the Pope has not been "ritually" turning towards Mecca - whatever that means or signifies - and hence implying that the Pope was not "purposefully praying towards Mecca".

Would you have been okay with the Pope praying in the mosque if he had not been facing the direction of Mecca?

[Paprika]

Would you have been okay with the Pope praying in the mosque if he had not been facing the direction of Mecca?

I'm not sure you're avoiding my question.

It would depend on how he was praying, of course, but I can say that it wouldn't have been as bad.

[Spartacus]

I don't embrace those premises; you'll have to argue for it.

You hadn't presented your premises, and so left me to grasp at straws to understand your perspective. It is only natural that the straws which I have thus grasped should, together, seem to be a fairly obvious strawman. I am culpable for my failure to comprehend only insofar as you are not culpable for a failure to articulate yourself.

And how is this relevant?

I suppose it isn't tremendously relevant, except to the extent that it complicates one's perception of Islam and its historical development.

[Adrift]

I'm not sure you're avoiding my question.

It would depend on how he was praying, of course, but I can say that it wouldn't have been as bad.

Alright. So the really objectionable part to you seems to be that he was facing Mecca (qibla) while praying in the mosque. Intentionally facing the qibla is part of the ritualism of Salat. I don't believe the Pope was intentionally ritualising his prayer by facing the qibla. I don't think he was intentionally attempting to emulate the Islamic style of prayer in any fashion. I think he walked into a building that faced that direction and he probably prayed in much the same fashion that he always prays. How much he thought about the fact that the building was facing Mecca before he stepped in, I can't say, but I think it unlikely that its significance factored at all in his personal petition and worship.

Since your major beef seems to be that the Pope was facing the direction of Mecca, it seems that you should agree that intention is meaningful. Maybe you don't though. I don't know.

So, if this reply doesn't satisfy you, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know how to break it up into smaller pieces. Hopefully others understand what I'm trying to say.

[KingsGambit]

Almsgiving is also one of the five pillars of Mecca, so there needs to be more to the analysis than rather a given action satisfies one of them. One might respond "but other almsgiving isn't meant to satisfy Allah"... and I would reply that neither is Francis trying to do the same here.

Edit: Five pillars of Islam.

[Spartacus]

It has long been my impression that there is at least a little more to Islamic prayer than the direction-- prostration and recitation are both constitutive, and ritual purification plays at least a small role. If a Muslim would not mistake Francis' actions as a participation in salat, then perhaps we shouldn't, either.

[Paprika]

You hadn't presented your premises, and so left me to grasp at straws to understand your perspective. It is only natural that the straws which I have thus grasped should, together, seem to be a fairly obvious strawman. I am culpable for my failure to comprehend only insofar as you are not culpable for a failure to articulate yourself.

You could always ask.

I suppose it isn't tremendously relevant, except to the extent that it complicates one's perception of Islam and its historical development.

Then I'll have to trouble you to take such discussion of irrelevant theories elsewhere.

[Paprika]

Since your major beef seems to be that the Pope was facing the direction of Mecca, it seems that you should agree that intention is meaningful. Maybe you don't though.

I don't; you might want to refer to my response to robrecht.

[Paprika]

It has long been my impression that there is at least a little more to Islamic prayer than the direction-- prostration and recitation are both constitutive, and ritual purification plays at least a small role. If a Muslim would not mistake Francis' actions as a participation in salat, then perhaps we shouldn't, either.

There are many conditions for valid salat, true. That a Muslim may not mistake his actions as a valid participation in salat does not imply the Muslim would not mistake it as a attempt to do so.

[KingsGambit]

There are many conditions for valid salat, true. That a Muslim may not mistake his actions as a valid participation in salat does not imply the Muslim would not mistake it as a attempt to do so.

Incidentally, do we know how Muslims have generally perceived this? Obviously they are not a homogeneous group but perhaps there are some noticeable trends or statements by prominent leaders.

(After all, it would seem relevant to at least see how this has empirically shaken out if we are considering how Muslims *might* perceive it, right?)

[Paprika]

Incidentally, do we know how Muslims have generally perceived this? Obviously they are not a homogeneous group but perhaps there are some noticeable trends or statements by prominent leaders.

I don't; perhaps Spartacus - the one who first brought it up - might care to enlighten us.

[robrecht]

The Pope prayed facing Mecca in a mosque. What is the context of this action? Praying facing Mecca in a mosque is one of main ways Muslims carry out a key praxis of Islam - Salat, one of the 'Five Pillars'.

Francis's actions within this context hence make him out to be participating in such a praxis - especially with the significance of him being the leader of a large community of Christians, it is a poor witness to be seen as participating in idolatry. His intentions - whatever they may be - are not very relevant; what matters is what he has done.

I don't think the pope was being idolatrous. Human practices or customs of respect and reverence for traditions, places and people held in esteem need not imply worship of a thing in the place of God. When Jews or Christians orient synagogues or cathedrals toward Jerusalem or toward the East, this too can express various meanings, but they need not be idolatrous. Christians were sometimes thought to be sun worshippers, but, of course, Christians do not worship the sun. Likewise, I don't think Muslims worship Mecca. Praying toward Mecca carries a particular meaning, expressing respect for their religious traditions, but I would not automatically assume this is idolatry.

[Teallaura]

But not necessarily so, we agree. But there is also another point of agreement: Pope Francis was engaging in the group activity the building existed for: prayer to Allah.

Then why did your OP only address the side issue of the direction he was facing? Seems to me the bigger and more pertinent question is whether he should have been praying in a mosque in the first place.

[Paprika]

I don't think the pope was being idolatrous...Likewise, I don't think Muslims worship Mecca.

I'm not sure how on earth you got from my post that idea that Muslims worship Mecca.

Or wait, maybe I do - is it because you disagree with my view that what the Muslims worship is not our God?