Same Hakeem, I'm still waiting for you to teach me the Trinity.
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World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.
This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.
And as usual, the forum rules apply.
Forum Rules: Here
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Did Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostClaiming "the HOLY SPIRIT IS CLEARLY GOD and DIVINE according to Jesus' authority" is not true because according to your reasoning, the angels that are spirits in Hebrews 1:7 & 14, are GODS.
The Bible in 1 John 2:30 says "God knows everything" whereas Jesus limited the knowledge of his second coming to "ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 therefore excluding the Holy Spirit.Originally posted by 37818 View Post1 John 3:20 Has a context. All what things?
1 John 3:19-21, ". . . And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. . . ."
Genuine believers know they have God's complete forgiveness (1 Iohn 5:10-13), those who do not (Romans 8:9) remain self condemned (Matthew 12:36).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Genesis 1:2John 4:24John 20:22
All three verses above have NO reference to any angel at all. But exclusively to the Holy Spirit. You have no understanding at all about GOD, the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ or the angels, and you are really unqualified to make any intelligent feedback or comments about them!
You are a real & desperate joke, ya hakeem!
Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostClaiming "the HOLY SPIRIT IS CLEARLY GOD and DIVINE according to Jesus' authority" is not true because according to your reasoning, the angels that are spirits in Hebrews 1:7 & 14, are GODS.
The Bible in 1 John 2:30 says "God knows everything" whereas Jesus limited the knowledge of his second coming to "ONLY THE FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 therefore excluding the Holy Spirit.
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Originally posted by Dan Zebiri View PostGenesis 1:2John 4:24John 20:22
All three verses above have NO reference to any angel at all. But exclusively to the Holy Spirit. You have no understanding at all about GOD, the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ or the angels, and you are really unqualified to make any intelligent feedback or comments about them!
You are a real & desperate joke, ya hakeem!
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Yes God is Spirit and also "God knows everything" in 1 John 3:20 however the Holy Spirit does not know the second coming of Jesus when Jesus made limited the knowledge of his second coming to " ONLY The FATHER" in Matthew 24:36 "No man knows that hour and that day not even the angels in heaven but ONLY THE FATHER".
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostDid Jesus preach or proclaim the doctrine of the Trinity?
The concept of God as Trinity, a threefold unity, is a distinctive mark of the church's patristic theological culture and began to emerge in the second century, and after that it grew quite rapidly. However, it was not fully and formally [doctrinally] articulated until the Arian controversy of the fourth century that forced theologians to make a definitive statement of belief in the manner of Trinitarian relations and the character (particularly the status) of the persons of the Trinity. Of course, even then, not everyone agreed."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostA pious and observant Jew would hardly preach of polytheistic divinities. The first two commandments forbid such ideas.
The concept of God as Trinity, a threefold unity, is a distinctive mark of the church's patristic theological culture and began to emerge in the second century, and after that it grew quite rapidly. However, it was not fully and formally [doctrinally] articulated until the Arian controversy of the fourth century that forced theologians to make a definitive statement of belief in the manner of Trinitarian relations and the character (particularly the status) of the persons of the Trinity. Of course, even then, not everyone agreed.
The Trinitarian derives first from the biblical emphasis on monotheism and then biblical record of the multiple persons of the single God. It was not a new concept of later centuries. The doctrine was only a clarification to point out heretical conceptions.Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-11-2020, 07:14 PM.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThe pious and observant Jew could hold to the multiple persons in the Godhead.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThis was a topic in discussion in the early centuries of this era.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostYou can checkout Alan Segal's book "Two Powers in Heaven."Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 06-11-2020, 07:28 PM."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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I suppose I could leave the interpretation of the piety decision to those who decide these matters within various Jewish groups. But the observations stem from interesting passages in the early scriptures. From a Christian perspective, the pious and observant Christian is one who adheres to the testimony of scripture.
There were varying ideas of the multiple persons among Jews and in early Christianity (and still are today, with recognition of some as too divergent from the scriptures), but the understanding of the Trinity is derived from the scriptues of the first century.
As to Segal's book, I just got a copy of it today -- the 1977 version.Last edited by mikewhitney; 06-11-2020, 07:54 PM.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostI suppose I could leave the interpretation of the piety decision to those who decide these matters within various Jewish groups. But the observations stem from interesting passages in the early scriptures. From a Christian perspective, the pious and observant Christian is one who adheres to the testimony of scripture.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThere were varying ideas of the multiple persons among Jews and in early Christianity (and still are today, with recognition of some as too divergent from the scriptures),
Originally posted by mikewhitney View Postbut the understanding of the Trinity is derived from the scriptues of the first century.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostAs to Segal's book, I just got a copy of it today -- the 1977 version."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe problem there being that no pious and observant Christian today has any original MSS for "the testimony of scripture".
Would you care to provide some examples?
No it isn't. It is in the work of Theophilus of Antioch [died c:183/185 CE] that the term Triad (trias) makes it theological debut.
1977 was the year of its publication.
The testimony of scripture shows no indications of changes that affect any Christian doctrines. So I'm not sure what you are challenging here. I know this point has been atested to by my scholars on the NT; I'm not sure how it extends to the older scriptures.
In asking to provide examples, are you asking this in order to contest the passages that Segal points out (concerning the OT)?
I'm not planning on going through the NT examples. That is not my present interest.
I'm not sure why you say that the awareness of the deity of Christ began with Theophilus of Antioch. He is just the one who introduced the term that helped describe the Godhead.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostIt sounds like you are a Jewish apologist. It appears that you have studied things well.
If one assumes that a historical figure existed, and considering the socio-political situation in Judaea and Galilee at the the time such a figure would not be unknown [we know that there were various Messiahs both before and after Jesus of Nazareth]; then that figure would have been an observant Jew. That a particular Jew was preaching of the End Times to his fellow Jews and urging them to repent, is again, a conceivable possibility considering the beliefs among many Jews at the time.
However, the various figures we are presented with in the four canonical gospels are later constructs that contain a Christian gloss. The character of Jesus we find in John's gospel is positively "unearthly" and bears no resemblance to the man of God we get brief glimpses of in Mark's account.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostThe testimony of scripture shows no indications of changes that affect any Christian doctrines.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostSo I'm not sure what you are challenging here.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostIn asking to provide examples, are you asking this in order to contest the passages that Segal points out (concerning the OT)?
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostI'm not planning on going through the NT examples. That is not my present interest.
Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostI'm not sure why you say that the awareness of the deity of Christ began with Theophilus of Antioch.
Both Eusebius of Caesarea and Jerome refer to Theophilus' apology To AutolycusLast edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 06-12-2020, 07:16 AM."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostA pious and observant Jew would hardly preach of polytheistic divinities. The first two commandments forbid such ideas.
The concept of God as Trinity, a threefold unity, is a distinctive mark of the church's patristic theological culture and began to emerge in the second century, and after that it grew quite rapidly. However, it was not fully and formally [doctrinally] articulated until the Arian controversy of the fourth century that forced theologians to make a definitive statement of belief in the manner of Trinitarian relations and the character (particularly the status) of the persons of the Trinity. Of course, even then, not everyone agreed.
https://www.monergism.com/topics/trinity
https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm...ty/trinity.cfm
There are trinity quotes before the Arian controversy.
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostThe concept of the Trinity is biblical.
https://www.monergism.com/topics/trinity
https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm...ty/trinity.cfm
There are trinity quotes before the Arian controversy."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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