Catholic Problems

[robrecht]

I'm sorry, I lost track. What was your question again?

Oh, I see, so it's wrong because it makes you feel bad? Great argument there.

Do you really believe that is what I was saying?

[TimelessTheist]

Do you really believe that is what I was saying?

That's what it seemed like, yes.

[Paprika]

This is the point where you'd be expected to back up the factual claims.

Still waiting

[robrecht]

That's what it seemed like, yes.

And is that what you still think?

[TimelessTheist]

Still waiting

It says it in the Bible. You know about Peter as "the rock", right?

[Paprika]

It says it in the Bible.

The Bible doesn't say it* explicitly, so lay out the case.

You know about Peter as "the rock", right?

First question. Why does Jesus refer to Peter as Πέτρος, and the rock the church is to be built on as πέτρᾳ?

*It, being, of course, the point I contested which was

The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it.... This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

[Spartacus]

The Bible doesn't say it* explicitly, so lay out the case.


First question. Why does Jesus refer to Peter as Πέτρος, and the rock the church is to be built on as πέτρᾳ?

*It, being, of course, the point I contested which was

The language in which Jesus spoke (and from which many scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was translated) was Aramaic, in which the word in both cases would have been kepha/Cephas. The weaker noun petrus is used in the first instance because it's masculine and therefore more appropriate to use in reference to a man, while the second word makes the meaning clear.

[TimelessTheist]

The Bible doesn't say it* explicitly, so lay out the case.


First question. Why does Jesus refer to Peter as Πέτρος, and the rock the church is to be built on as πέτρᾳ?

*It, being, of course, the point I contested which was

How is that a problem? Greek scholars admit that "petra" and "petros" are actually synonomous.

[Paprika]

T The weaker noun petrus is used in the first instance because it's masculine and therefore more appropriate to use in reference to a man

Then why isn't the second "rock" masculine as well?

[Paprika]

How is that a problem? Greek scholars admit that "petra" and "petros" are actually synonomous.

I'm fine if you don't see this as a problem now. Meanwhile, can you defend the overall case, as you said you would?

[Spartacus]

Then why isn't the second "rock" masculine as well?

Because petra, the feminine noun, was used far more commonly to refer to a larger type of rock.

[Paprika]

Because petra, the feminine noun, was used far more commonly to refer to a larger type of rock.

1) So you're saying that petra in general usage would refer to a different type of rock than petros?
2) If petra is supposed to be referring to Peter, why would Jesus say "on this rock I will build my church" instead of "on you I will build my church", given that Jesus otherwise addressing Peter directly?

[Spartacus]

1) So you're saying that petra in general usage would refer to a different type of rock than petros?

2) If petra is supposed to be referring to Peter, why would Jesus say "on this rock I will build my church" instead of "on you I will build my church", given that Jesus otherwise addressing Peter directly?

The Aramaic, which I already explained, is far more important. I know why you don't want to deal with it, but it'd really be better all-around if you did.

[TimelessTheist]

2) If petra is supposed to be referring to Peter, why would Jesus say "on this rock I will build my church" instead of "on you I will build my church", given that Jesus otherwise addressing Peter directly?

Peter's new name became "petros", how is that not clear enough?

[Paprika]

The Aramaic, which I already explained, is far more important. I know why you don't want to deal with it, but it'd really be better all-around if you did.

We do not have what Jesus said in Aramaic. What we do have is the Greek, which is why I am dealing with the Greek. If you do want to make an argument from a reconstruction of the Aramaic, feel free to do so, but I think it'll need much more detail and rigor then you have given it.