Originally posted by RBerman
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Forum Rules: Here
World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.
This is not a place where we argue the existence / non-existence of God.
And as usual, the forum rules apply.
Forum Rules: Here
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Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostWell, okay. I should've said the sacraments are the "main" means by which you receive grace for salvation, with the exception of baptism, of course. Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostCan a person be a Christian who has not been water baptized yet?Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostAre you distrustful of people who ask you to pray for them?
Such as?
I think that's mostly a Protestant myth.
Me neither, but as you say that is not a specifically Catholic problem, especially since Catholics, following Irenaeus, tend to emphasize the salvific role of the incarnation rather than focusing merely upon Jesus' death. Besides, Anselm's theory was more evocative of the feudal social order of his day than post Protestant rebelliousness.
Good for you!
I don't think there's any danger of this happening all of the sudden in the Catholic church so we can probably dismiss that concern. My only argument in favor of women's ordination is that I see no good reason against it. And, as you say, I've seen it work very, very well in ways that inspired me to be open minded about this.
As for prayers to Mary and the saints, I believe RBerman covered it. It looks like something (and has been something) that would lead people to put religious devotion to the saints or Mary and to forget about devotion to God. In other words, giving latria to saints and Mary in the devotee's practice, even if they verbalize or think they are only giving dulia. Without perfect confidence that the practice is approved/demanded by God, I would be suspicious of it and not teach others to do it.
As for the monasteries/convents, I may have mouthed sooner than I should have. I have concerns that some monasteries/convents that I've seen accept people too readily into the Holy Orders (or the wrong kind of people, or accept without grilling the person enough), people who really have no business being a monk/nun and would better serve God somewhere else in life. However, my knowledge of modern day monasteries and convents is limited to only a few examples, I don't know if its a widespread problem. I imagine it very well could be, but I really should have been more specific in my concern and not just mouthed off to monasteries in general.
I'm not sure its just a Protestant myth. I could check with a trustworthy missionary I know to be certain, since he deals with a heavily Catholic population. He's Baptist and more biased against Catholicism than I am, but he's also trustworthy and (from all reports) has had to deal with a poor crowd.
As for women's ordination, I think this is a case where tradition and lack of any female priests in the Scriptures (tradition, although tradition noted in Scripture) is enough of an argument to overcome how well they may do in said role, as well as any concerns about being "culturally relevant" and such.
Really, my biggest thing against it is that, despite roles like prophet and judge being filled by females before, I know of not one example of a female priest in either the Old or New Testament Scriptures. And plenty of priests are mentioned throughout Scripture. I may not have a deductive, theoretical argument for why not, but I think this inductive, by-tradition argument is strong enough to forbid women's ordination. I'd change my position quite readily if any example in the Scriptures (or maybe within the early church) of a female priest could be found.
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostNo.
1249 Catechumens "are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity."48 "With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own."49אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Just Some Dude View PostAs for prayers to Mary and the saints, I believe RBerman covered it. It looks like something (and has been something) that would lead people to put religious devotion to the saints or Mary and to forget about devotion to God. In other words, giving latria to saints and Mary in the devotee's practice, even if they verbalize or think they are only giving dulia. Without perfect confidence that the practice is approved/demanded by God, I would be suspicious of it and not teach others to do it.
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I would agree that some "Shi'ite" Catholics go waaaaaaaay overboard with their adoration of the saints (to the point that pictures and figurines of Jesus look like little Hobbits compared to the icons of Mary and the saints surrounding them), but the idea of asking people to pray for you is far from unorthodox. I remain squeamish, however, with just about everything related to Mariology and the uber-saccharine depictions of her and the saints and the horrid purple prose of some of the prayers offered to them (but I know there's no accounting for personal taste).
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But who knows, I've adopted some theology in recent years that I'd never imagine I'd hold. You just might find me in Mass one day in the future, but I doubt it
One major plus to Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Orthodox practices is it's high liturgical format to their worship services. The super casual atmosphere of my protestant denominational services are terrible (and don't get me started on the music).
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Originally posted by Just Some Dude View PostI should have replied to this much sooner. I am sorry.
Originally posted by Just Some Dude View PostAs for prayers to Mary and the saints, I believe RBerman covered it. It looks like something (and has been something) that would lead people to put religious devotion to the saints or Mary and to forget about devotion to God.
Originally posted by Just Some Dude View PostIn other words, giving latria to saints and Mary in the devotee's practice, even if they verbalize or think they are only giving dulia. Without perfect confidence that the practice is approved/demanded by God, I would be suspicious of it and not teach others to do it.
Originally posted by Just Some Dude View PostAs for the monasteries/convents, I may have mouthed sooner than I should have. I have concerns that some monasteries/convents that I've seen accept people too readily into the Holy Orders (or the wrong kind of people, or accept without grilling the person enough), people who really have no business being a monk/nun and would better serve God somewhere else in life. However, my knowledge of modern day monasteries and convents is limited to only a few examples, I don't know if its a widespread problem. I imagine it very well could be, but I really should have been more specific in my concern and not just mouthed off to monasteries in general.
Originally posted by Just Some Dude View PostI'm not sure its just a Protestant myth. I could check with a trustworthy missionary I know to be certain, since he deals with a heavily Catholic population. He's Baptist and more biased against Catholicism than I am, but he's also trustworthy and (from all reports) has had to deal with a poor crowd.
Originally posted by Just Some Dude View PostAs for women's ordination, I think this is a case where tradition and lack of any female priests in the Scriptures (tradition, although tradition noted in Scripture) is enough of an argument to overcome how well they may do in said role, as well as any concerns about being "culturally relevant" and such.
Really, my biggest thing against it is that, despite roles like prophet and judge being filled by females before, I know of not one example of a female priest in either the Old or New Testament Scriptures. And plenty of priests are mentioned throughout Scripture. I may not have a deductive, theoretical argument for why not, but I think this inductive, by-tradition argument is strong enough to forbid women's ordination. I'd change my position quite readily if any example in the Scriptures (or maybe within the early church) of a female priest could be found.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostThat's...kind of the point, actually, the fact that he wasn't mentioned among the other heretics that went "contrary to the orthodox faith". If he truly was heretical, he would've been mentioned along with them.
Yes. However, the defense was in response to Sergius' non-sequitur about Christ having one human will instead of two human wills. Said defense was not in response to the heresy in question. Were you even paying attention?
I don't see how a simple phrase like that undermines his argument. He did, certainly, in all respects, follow Sergius' view of silence on the Church's part. If it said "views", as in, multiple views, then I'd be in trouble.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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You're not the only Protestant who heavily favors a liturgical format. Don't forget the Anglicans either, as I believe some of them (like one that I'll be visiting tomorrow) still hold to a liturgical service.
Neither are you the only one with complaints about the music, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms, and a rather large can at that.
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I would agree that some "Shi'ite" Catholics go waaaaaaaay overboard with their adoration of the saints (to the point that pictures and figurines of Jesus look like little Hobbits compared to the icons of Mary and the saints surrounding them), but the idea of asking people to pray for you is far from unorthodox. I remain squeamish, however, with just about everything related to Mariology and the uber-saccharine depictions of her and the saints and the horrid purple prose of some of the prayers offered to them (but I know there's no accounting for personal taste).Last edited by robrecht; 04-05-2014, 09:04 PM.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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