Baha'i faith, slavery and progressive revelation...

[seer]

So? You did not answer the question: Is slavery moral today?

I answered many times the problem of the failure of slavery being condemned in past ancient tribal religions. Also you failed to answer the question: Is it still moral today to stone to death persons for the various violations of Hebrew Law such as charges of heresy?

It depends what you mean by slavery, if I am kidnapped and sold into slavery, then no. If it is voluntary, and it saves me from starving to death, then yes. And stoning for heresy only applied in that theocracy. And we don't have theocracies today. As far as the death penalty in principle, I'm not against it. But remember it was God who had Moses institute the death penalty.

So what? The wide spread existence of slavery does not justify the morality of slavery, just as the widespread increase in murder justifies murder. Part of the problem of the existence of slavery today is ancient tribal religions fail to condemn slavery.

The question is, why is slavery wrong? And remember it was God who did not condemn slavery in the Mosaic law. So stop your tribal nonsense.

[shunyadragon]

It depends what you mean by slavery, if I am kidnapped and sold into slavery, then no. If it is voluntary, and it saves me from starving to death, then yes. And stoning for heresy only applied in that theocracy. And we don't have theocracies today. As far as the death penalty in principle, I'm not against it. But remember it was God who had Moses institute the death penalty.

Voluntary is NOT slavery it is indentured servitude. Slavery involves the ownership, purchase and sale of human beings against their will.

Is slavery moral today?

The question is, why is slavery wrong? And remember it was God who did not condemn slavery in the Mosaic law.

True, as believed by ancient Hebrew tribal Law ordained by God.

So stop your tribal nonsense.

Also failed to answer the following 'tribal question: Is it still moral today to stone to death persons for the various violations of Hebrew Law such as charges of heresy?

[Sparko]

Voluntary is NOT slavery it is indentured servitude. Slavery involves the ownership, purchase and sale of human beings against their will.

Is slavery moral today?





True, as believed by ancient Hebrew tribal Law ordained by God.



Also failed to answer the following 'tribal question: Is it still moral today to stone to death persons for the various violations of Hebrew Law such as charges of heresy?

How is the modern use of prisons and forced prison labor different from slavery?

[shunyadragon]

How is the modern use of prisons and forced prison labor different from slavery?

Th people in prison are their under violations of law and convicted under the 'rule of law.' Also slaves are 'owned' as property and bought and sold.By definition slaves are not.

[seer]

Voluntary is NOT slavery it is indentured servitude. Slavery involves the ownership, purchase and sale of human beings against their will.

And that is not always what you find in Scripture:

Although God liberated the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt, slavery is not universally prohibited in the Bible. Slavery was permissible in certain situations, so long as slaves were regarded as full members of the community (Gen. 17:12), received the same rest periods and holidays as non-slaves (Exod. 23:12; Deut. 5:14-15, 12:12), and were treated humanely (Exod. 21:7, 26-27). Most importantly, slavery among Hebrews was not intended as a permanent condition, but a voluntary, temporary refuge for people suffering what would otherwise be desperate poverty. “When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt” (Exod. 21:2).

True, as believed by ancient Hebrew tribal Law ordained by God.

So God ordained slavery. What is your problem?

Also failed to answer the following 'tribal question: Is it still moral today to stone to death persons for the various violations of Hebrew Law such as charges of heresy?

I already answered: And stoning for heresy only applied in that theocracy. And we don't have theocracies today. As far as the death penalty in principle, I'm not against it. But remember it was God who had Moses institute the death penalty.

[Sparko]

Th people in prison are their under violations of law and convicted under the 'rule of law.' Also slaves are 'owned' as property and bought and sold.By definition slaves are not.

They are held against their will in a location not of their choosing and made to do work for little or no pay. Sounds a lot like slavery to me. Slavery isn't just about being bought or sold (Heck football players are "bought and sold" and traded in football drafts), it is about not having the freedom to do what you want with your life. Just like in a prison. The prison "owns" the inmates and controls them from the time they wake till the time they go to bed.

Back in the ancient days of the bible, most slaves were basically prisoners from conquests and wars. They didn't have prisons, so they made their prisoners into slaves. Not really that much different than today's prisons and work gangs.

[shunyadragon]

They are held against their will in a location not of their choosing and made to do work for little or no pay. Sounds a lot like slavery to me. Slavery isn't just about being bought or sold (Heck football players are "bought and sold" and traded in football drafts), it is about not having the freedom to do what you want with your life. Just like in a prison. The prison "owns" the inmates and controls them from the time they wake till the time they go to bed.

Back in the ancient days of the bible, most slaves were basically prisoners from conquests and wars. They didn't have prisons, so they made their prisoners into slaves. Not really that much different than today's prisons and work gangs.

Sounds like slavery to you because you have difficulty with the definitions of words in the English language.

Slavery by definition does NOT involve the commission of crimes and conviction in a court of law.

Though there is a history of Penal Servitude in the South after reconstruction up into the twentieth century where blacks were arrested for menial violations or no criminal offence, and put to work as slaves in municipal projects, railroads and leased out to private companies in coal mines and industry with no pay.

[shunyadragon]

And that is not always what you find in Scripture:

Although God liberated the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt, slavery is not universally prohibited in the Bible. Slavery was permissible in certain situations, so long as slaves were regarded as full members of the community (Gen. 17:12), received the same rest periods and holidays as non-slaves (Exod. 23:12; Deut. 5:14-15, 12:12), and were treated humanely (Exod. 21:7, 26-27). Most importantly, slavery among Hebrews was not intended as a permanent condition, but a voluntary, temporary refuge for people suffering what would otherwise be desperate poverty. “When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt” (Exod. 21:2).

You are being selective here based on an agenda. Most of the above refers to indentured servitude or 'bondservant Hebrews and not slavery of foreigners. The following better address slavery of foreigners by Hebrews. It clearly ans specifically describes the double standard of Hebrew bond servants, and foreign slaves.

Leviticus 25:44-46
New International Version

⁴⁴ “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. ⁴⁵ You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. ⁴⁶ You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

So God ordained slavery. What is your problem?

It reflects the standard of morality at the time and culture including many other laws ordained by God. Today there is a new standard morality and ethics for the contemporary world. Progressive Revelation.

I already answered: And stoning for heresy only applied in that theocracy. And we don't have theocracies today. As far as the death penalty in principle, I'm not against it. But remember it was God who had Moses institute the death penalty.

Actually you are confirming my view that the ancient tribal laws ordained by Go are no longer valid and replaced with a new standard.

[seer]

It reflects the standard of morality at the time and culture including many other laws ordained by God. Today there is a new standard morality and ethics for the contemporary world. Progressive Revelation.

Well yes, perhaps that is why the Christian abolition movement began before your Prophet came to the same conclusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_abolitionism

Actually you are confirming my view that the ancient tribal laws ordained by God are no longer valid and replaced with a new standard.

Got it, so laws against murder, rape, theft, adultery, fraud, homosexuality, false witness, prostitution, etc, etc...are no longer valid!

[Sparko]

Sounds like slavery to you because you have difficulty with the definitions of words in the English language.

Because "English" is the only language that refers to slavery?

Slavery by definition does NOT involve the commission of crimes and conviction in a court of law.

So when the people in the ANE put someone into slavery for committing a crime then that wasn't slavery. Good to know.

Though there is a history of Penal Servitude in the South after reconstruction up into the twentieth century where blacks were arrested for menial violations or no criminal offence, and put to work as slaves in municipal projects, railroads and leased out to private companies in coal mines and industry with no pay.

But you just said that wasn't "Slavery"

[shunyadragon]

Because "English" is the only language that refers to slavery?

Slavery in any language is still slavery by definition.

So when the people in the ANE put someone into slavery for committing a crime then that wasn't slavery. Good to know.

NO! It is not slavery by definition.

[/quote] But you just said that wasn't "Slavery"
[/QUOTE]

When in the South blacks were put in prison for 20 years to life and forced labor for NO Crime committed or a minor offence it is most definitely slavery. It is called penal slavery. Minor offences are not worthy of long prison terms and forced labor.

[shunyadragon]

Well yes, perhaps that is why the Christian abolition movement began before your Prophet came to the same conclusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_abolitionism

Yes, but that is not the issue here. A minority of people were beginning to reject ancient tribal laws before the Baha'i Faith. There rejection was not based on the Bible. The predominant view among Christians in the West was not in opposition to slavery.

Got it, so laws against murder, rape, theft, adultery, fraud, homosexuality, false witness, prostitution, etc, etc...are no longer valid!

Not the point, and reading comprehension appears to be one of your problems. Actually rape is not specifically forbidden in the Bible. I never stated that ALL laws of anceint tribal scripture were not still applicable to the contemporary world. Murder, theft, adultery, fraud, false witness are pretty much universal laws in ALL religions in human history.

[Sparko]

Slavery in any language is still slavery by definition.

Ok.

NO! It is not slavery by definition.

Will you please make up your mind?

But you just said that wasn't "Slavery"

When in the South blacks were put in prison for 20 years to life and forced labor for NO Crime committed or a minor offence it is most definitely slavery. It is called penal slavery. Minor offences are not worthy of long prison terms and forced labor.

So putting someone into prison IS slavery? But only if they were not actually guilty of a crime? Do you know how many actual innocent people who were wrongfully convicted of a crime are locked up right now? Lots. Are they slaves?

[seer]

Yes, but that is not the issue here. A minority of people were beginning to reject ancient tribal laws before the Baha'i Faith. There rejection was not based on the Bible. The predominant view among Christians in the West was not in opposition to slavery.

Obviously God was leading these Christians to the belief that slavery was no longer morally viable. And why does it have to be based on the Bible.

Not the point, and reading comprehension appears to be one of your problems. Actually rape is not specifically forbidden in the Bible. I never stated that ALL laws of anceint tribal scripture were not still applicable to the contemporary world. Murder, theft, adultery, fraud, false witness are pretty much universal laws in ALL religions in human history.

So many Biblical laws are still valid today, those tribal laws were in fact universal.

[shunyadragon]

Ok.


Will you please make up your mind?

No problem. My posts are specific as to what is slavery based on the definition. You are havng problems with the English language.

So putting someone into prison IS slavery?

No, if they are found guilty by 'rule of law.'

But only if they were not actually guilty of a crime?

But only if they were not actually [found] guilty of a crime ['by rule of law'] . Yes.

Do you know how many actual innocent people who were wrongfully convicted of a crime are locked up right now? Lots. Are they slaves?

No. issues of wrongful conviction are not the subject we are dealing with when the 'rule of law is observed,' except where wrongful conviction is deliberate to put people in slavery as occurred in the South, double
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