Derail from "Slaughter in Paris."

[robrecht]

Than do not blame only the atheists for the atrocities of pogroms and persecutions. The citations form the NT are specific and accurate.

Where did seer blame only atheists for the atrocities of pogroms and persecutions? I thought he said rather clearly that he 'never denied that people did wicked things in the name of Christ' (92), that 'people kill for religious reasons' (38) and 'have murdered in the name of Christ' (65), and he even agreed that 'the whole regrettable history of the last thousands of years has been a history of religious persecutions and wars, pogroms, jihads, crusades', but only wanted to add that atheistic regimes also perpetrated such violence (2).

[Carrikature]

well yes in a number of places.

Irony is quoting posts that prove you wrong in the exact same post you make a claim. He can't have only placed blame on atheists when he started with an attack on Islam.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, and I was responding to Tass, who quoted this:



Then you had to stick your nose in...

Good quote from Tass!!!

[Tassman]

That was my whole point, Tass first attacked people of faith, that is why I responded with the atheist thing, then Shuny jumped on the ban wagon, as usual, and I said to him.

"Attacked!"

[Abigail]

And so it goes on. "The whole history of the last thousands of years has been a history of religious persecutions and wars, pogroms, jihads, crusades. I find it all very regrettable, to say the least." - Steven Weinberg.

Just look about you at the non-Christian and purely secular states and I think the facts will speak for themselves that it has been the Christian nations who have been prepared to allow space for those who do not hold the same views as themselves. Yes the Crusaders were no angels however the Crusades were "in essence a defensive action against the spread of Islam by the sword." (http://normangeisler.com/the-crusade...hey-justified/). Even today the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and places like Libya have been primarily to give help to those who have been crying out because of oppression under various dictators. If the Christian West had been as hardline as Tassman tries to portray we would not have the Europe we have today. The Europe we have today is primarily because Christianity allows space for those who do not wish to be part of it. 'Whosoever will' is how the Good Book puts it. Cast your eyes back to Maoist China and Stalinist Russia or nowadays to North Korea and to Iraq and Iran and see how secular and non-Christian states operate. They do not allow space for anyone to have a different belief system to those in charge. We are seeing this more and more in the West as the progressive liberals take control. No-one is allowed to have thoughts or beliefs of which they do not approve. Of the three systems (Christian, Muslim, secular-atheist)all would like to see everyone be part of their system, but it is only Christianity which believes that people should have a free choice and it is only Christianity who still values the life and welfare of those who are not part of their system.

[seer]

"Attacked!" How you love your hyperbole. I was making an observation about the negative impact of religious faith upon society and I supported my observation with the following quote from Steven Weinberg:

Yes, but you failed to mention the negative effects of atheism. And you failed to mention the positive effects of religion.

[seer]

Good quote from Tass!!!

Right, and I agreed with that quote - so I wasn't just attacking atheists.

[shunyadragon]

Just look about you at the non-Christian and purely secular states and I think the facts will speak for themselves that it has been the Christian nations who have been prepared to allow space for those who do not hold the same views as themselves. Yes the Crusaders were no angels however the Crusades were "in essence a defensive action against the spread of Islam by the sword." (http://normangeisler.com/the-crusade...hey-justified/). Even today the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and places like Libya have been primarily to give help to those who have been crying out because of oppression under various dictators. If the Christian West had been as hardline as Tassman tries to portray we would not have the Europe we have today. The Europe we have today is primarily because Christianity allows space for those who do not wish to be part of it. 'Whosoever will' is how the Good Book puts it. Cast your eyes back to Maoist China and Stalinist Russia or nowadays to North Korea and to Iraq and Iran and see how secular and non-Christian states operate. They do not allow space for anyone to have a different belief system to those in charge. We are seeing this more and more in the West as the progressive liberals take control. No-one is allowed to have thoughts or beliefs of which they do not approve. Of the three systems (Christian, Muslim, secular-atheist)all would like to see everyone be part of their system, but it is only Christianity which believes that people should have a free choice and it is only Christianity who still values the life and welfare of those who are not part of their system.

I consider this a very idealistic one-sided view of the reality of the historical persecution, ethnic cleansing, pogroms and violence between Judaism, Christianity and Islam in history.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=One Bad Pig;265362]For starters, it is absurd to quote the New Testament as anti-Semitic because nearly all of it was written by Jews, about Jews.

From Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: General and Historical Objections by Michael J. Brown:

Source: Ambrosiaster

However seriously the Jews may have sinned by rejecting the gift of God . . . nevertheless, because they are the children of good people, whose privileges and many benefits from God they have received, they will be received with joy when they return to the faith, because God's love for them is stirred up by the memory of their ancestors.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Cyril of Alexandria

Although it was rejected, Israel will also be saved eventually, a hope which Paul confirms [in Rom. 11:26] by quoting this text of scripture [viz., Isa. 59:21]. For indeed, Israel will be saved in its own time and will be called at the end, after the calling of the Gentiles.

© Copyright Original Source

My citations of the NT, and leaders in Christianity were accurate and specific, and resulted in millennia of pogroms, persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews.


There is no evidence that the gospels were written by Jews. Paul a Hellenist Jew that work for the Romans was hardly representative of Judaism.

Sorry, I cannot bring myself to sink to that level.

Than why bring it up?!?!!?

[shunyadragon]

You're the one asserting their veracity. YOU have the responsibility to provide proof. C'mon, don't be lazy.

The documents themselves, and the pogroms, persecution, and ethnic cleansing that resulted testifies to their veracity.

[seer]

For starters, it is absurd to quote the New Testament as anti-Semitic because nearly all of it was written by Jews, about Jews.

There is no evidence that the gospels were written by Jews. Paul a Hellenist Jew that work for the Romans was hardly representative of Judaism.

Nonsense, so they were gentile authors? And Paul was a Pharisee, never mind the fact that Jesus was a Jew.

[One Bad Pig]

For starters, it is absurd to quote the New Testament as anti-Semitic because nearly all of it was written by Jews, about Jews.

From Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: General and Historical Objections by Michael J. Brown:

Source: Ambrosiaster

However seriously the Jews may have sinned by rejecting the gift of God . . . nevertheless, because they are the children of good people, whose privileges and many benefits from God they have received, they will be received with joy when they return to the faith, because God's love for them is stirred up by the memory of their ancestors.

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Cyril of Alexandria

Although it was rejected, Israel will also be saved eventually, a hope which Paul confirms [in Rom. 11:26] by quoting this text of scripture [viz., Isa. 59:21]. For indeed, Israel will be saved in its own time and will be called at the end, after the calling of the Gentiles.

© Copyright Original Source

My citations of the NT, and leaders in Christianity were accurate and specific, and resulted in millennia of pogroms, persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews.

They weren't your citations - they were copied uncritically from an anti-missionary site - and the result is far less than what your bombast alleges. And you may as well not have quoted me, since what you posted completely ignores the material I posted.

There is no evidence that the gospels were written by Jews. Paul a Hellenist Jew that work for the Romans was hardly representative of Judaism.

Your unfounded assertions are duly noted.

Than why bring it up?!?!!?

I had some faint hope of causing you to reflect on your own action. Sadly, I was wrong.

[robrecht]

Paul was certainly a Jew. His writings and those of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Philo of Alexandria, and Josephus are the best 'first person' witnesses we have to the varieties of contemporary Judaism. Paul was certainly a messianic Jew, and was in conflict with some Judea authorities, as was the sect at Qumran, but he can be much better understood in his thoroughly Jewish context than has been typically the case with his later Christian interpreters. The fact that Paul (also?) spoke and wrote Greek in no way diminishes his Jewish identity.

[robrecht]

Right, and I agreed with that quote - so I wasn't just attacking atheists.

As I pointed out above, Shuny seems to have misunderstood the fact that you did not blame only atheists for the atrocities of pogroms and persecutions, that you 'never denied that people did wicked things in the name of Christ' (92), that 'people kill for religious reasons' (38) and 'have murdered in the name of Christ' (65), and even agreed that 'the whole regrettable history of the last thousands of years has been a history of religious persecutions and wars, pogroms, jihads, crusades', but only wanted to add that atheistic regimes also perpetrated such violence (2).

[seer]

As I pointed out above, Shuny seems to have misunderstood the fact that you did not blame only atheists for the atrocities of pogroms and persecutions, that you 'never denied that people did wicked things in the name of Christ' (92), that 'people kill for religious reasons' (38) and 'have murdered in the name of Christ' (65), and even agreed that 'the whole regrettable history of the last thousands of years has been a history of religious persecutions and wars, pogroms, jihads, crusades', but only wanted to add that atheistic regimes also perpetrated such violence (2).

Yes thank you for that, of course facts don't matter that much to Shuny.