Derail from "Slaughter in Paris."

[Tassman]

Start with this; men are the accidental by products of the forces of nature, with no inherent worth or value. Insignificant creatures in an indifferent universe. Whose life or death is ultimately meaningless.

Why is facing up to the realities of the universe and our place in it a negative effect? You prefer a fantasy universe of unreality, wish-fulfilment and denial it seems.

[The Thinker]

You're truly an idiot, huh?

The only idiots are those who think the Bible is true. And republicans.

[The Thinker]

Against secularism, sure - since secularism tends to do its best to relegate religion to the margins. Against "people of other faiths being a part of their society"? That would depend on the tenets of the particular group of Christians, which are all over the map. There is no biblical mandate whatsoever mandating a pure Christian society. Non sequitur.

All I was responding to what the idea that it's "Christian nations who have been prepared to allow space for those who do not hold the same views as themselves." First, "Christian nations" is a dubious term. Majorities in Canada, the UK, Ireland, France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, Australia, Czech Republic, Sweden, Denmark, Austria, Switzerland, South Korea, China & Japan are either not religious or convinced atheists: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...says-poll.html

So most of the hospitable nations that are open to various views are secular, not Christian. It is liberal secular nations that Abigail should've been praising, not Christian nations.

What makes no sense? Are you unable to comprehend disagreement?

Of course I am. Either you don't understand me or you are wrong.

Bald assertion. There are some fundamentalist Christians who want Christian theocracy. They make up a small minority of Christians, even here in the US.

57% of republicans want to establish Christianity as the national religion. 13% are "not sure". 34% of Americans in total want a Christian theocracy. These are not "small minority" numbers, this is a third of the country, and more than half of republicans.

Which you obviously disagree with. I get that. Now try formulating an actual argument instead of relying on assertion.

More assertion.

Not according to the facts I presented above. "Small minority" would have to be 48% of Christians, since the US is 70% Christian, and 34% of Americans in total want a Christian theocracy, virtually all of whom are Christian, and 34% of 70% is 48%. That means nearly half of American Christians want a theocracy. That's not a "small minority." Do you concede now?

Merely the conclusion your assertions lead to.

Maybe you should make one.

Respond to the one I just made.

[The Thinker]

There's a strong correlation but not a proven causation between the two. Common denominator more likely is relative prosperity and quality of life. Also, the most violent countries are generally those that have been shoved together with complete disregard to cultural/ethnic differences.

I mostly agree. I think that when the standard of living and quality of life in a country goes up, religion goes down. That means that by making the world a better place, we can make it less religious and kill two birds with one stone.

[Andius]

Except that the one country in the prosperous, developed world where Christianity is still taken seriously is the USA and the US ranks as one of the most violent, inequitable societies in the west with the highest rate of incarceration.

Oh brother....

Most violent externally? An arguably strong yes considering United States has picked fights with about 60 nations throughout it's history, ranging from covert interventions to full fledged invasions. But USA's violence last I checked were driven by ideas such as Manifest Destiny, Monroe Doctrine, or even good old fashioned military responses of aggression (Pearl Harbor comes to mind), but the Church or Christian Institutionality have hardly contributed to US Foreign Policy.

Internally violent? Say what you will about the crime rate in Los Angeles or Detroit, but they are NOTHING compared to the warzones here in my home. In a 2014 ranking, of the top 50 most violent cities around the world, about 41 of them are right in Latinamerica, with only 4 US cities making the list (the highest being Detroit at 24th). Where I live, we are #8, virtually not a day goes by without somebody getting killed, it is that bad. And even though Latinamerica (with the exception of Uruguay) is virtually a bastion of Christendom nowadays, Christian institutions are hardly instigators of said violence.

http://www.insightcrime.org/news-ana...-latin-america

Inequitable? True, and the gap is widening no doubt. But last I checked, the greed that drives it's politicians and elites are hardly originating from Christian institutionality, and in truth, are far more likely to tell the Church to take a hike instead of acting in Christian charity.

Speaking of associating Christendom with widening inequality, shouldn't Portugal, Spain, and the UK, nations with weak Christian institutions and strong secularity actually not even be in the top 10 nations with highest income inequalitie according to your assertions? Oy vey! Israel, a secular and Judaic nation, tail gates USA! I thought secularity was the magical solution to solving income inequality! No way secular nations should be close to the top 10 of 2015....

http://247wallst.com/special-report/...nd-the-poor/2/

Regarding incarceration... Yeah I'm not going to comment on that, hardly familiar with why the USA incarcarcerates so many folks.

But your ability to make strong corrolations sucks mate. Maybe you should travel more often, see more of the world if you can afford it.

[Abigail]

Here in America (you know, God's country) it is mostly the Christians who are against secularism, and against all non-Christian beliefs having a place in politics and society, and who want to turn the country into a Christian theocracy. The more Christian they get, the more xenophobic, anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant they generally are. Europe was this way for hundreds of years until the Enlightenment helped erode the social and political power of the Christian religion away, and then it became tolerant. So you're just wrong.

You are somehow conflating the State and the Church. The Church is not the State. When I say Christian State I mean those states who have a Judeo-Christian slant.

[Abigail]

So most of the hospitable nations that are open to various views are secular, not Christian. It is liberal secular nations that Abigail should've been praising, not Christian nations.

Many of those were once predominantly Christian - the fact they are now secular is proof that secular people were able to get ahead and become successful. We do not see this nowadays for Christians as progressive secularism takes hold.

[Andius]

There's a strong correlation but not a proven causation between the two. Common denominator more likely is relative prosperity and quality of life. Also, the most violent countries are generally those that have been shoved together with complete disregard to cultural/ethnic differences.

Well that.... And outright weak State institutions and corruption. When the folks in charge are more concerned with filling their pockets above all else, they will care less who gets killed in the process.

[Abigail]

And why is it that the most religious countries tend to be the most violent, and the least religious countries tend to have be the least violent?

Well you get two types of religious countries - those where the religion is voluntary and those where it is mandatory. Violence stems from a few things. Either you could be in a situation where the state wields an iron grip and anyone who goes against that is liquidated. Eg a person living in a Caliphate announcing they have converted to Christianity or Kim-jong-Un dissenter (secular). In democratic states which are predominantly religious you can get violence when people are unwilling to use the political process to effect change and also thinking of those states with a Judaeo-Christian heritage, these are proverbial melting pots of different peoples so there will always be conflicts. As the Judaeo-Christian nations have become secularized it has been negotiated under Judaeo-Christian guiding principles, IOW secularists etc have been able to point to Christian principles to win freedoms for themselves. As progressive secularism takes hold there will be no Christian principles of love, tolerance and seeking good for all to point to. It will be what the secularists want and nothing else will be tolerated.

[Tassman]

Oh brother....

Most violent externally? An arguably strong yes considering United States has picked fights with about 60 nations throughout it's history, ranging from covert interventions to full fledged invasions. But USA's violence last I checked were driven by ideas such as Manifest Destiny, Monroe Doctrine, or even good old fashioned military responses of aggression (Pearl Harbor comes to mind), but the Church or Christian Institutionality have hardly contributed to US Foreign Policy.

Internally violent? Say what you will about the crime rate in Los Angeles or Detroit, but they are NOTHING compared to the warzones here in my home. In a 2014 ranking, of the top 50 most violent cities around the world, about 41 of them are right in Latinamerica, with only 4 US cities making the list (the highest being Detroit at 24th). Where I live, we are #8, virtually not a day goes by without somebody getting killed, it is that bad. And even though Latinamerica (with the exception of Uruguay) is virtually a bastion of Christendom nowadays, Christian institutions are hardly instigators of said violence.

http://www.insightcrime.org/news-ana...-latin-america

I specifically referred to violence in and, nothing personal, Guatemala is not generally ranked thus, whereas the USA is.

Inequitable? True, and the gap is widening no doubt. But last I checked, the greed that drives it's politicians and elites are hardly originating from Christian institutionality, and in truth, are far more likely to tell the Church to take a hike instead of acting in Christian charity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y-adjusted_HDI

Speaking of associating Christendom with widening inequality, shouldn't Portugal, Spain, and the UK, nations with weak Christian institutions and strong secularity actually not even be in the top 10 nations with highest income inequalitie according to your assertions? Oy vey! Israel, a secular and Judaic nation, tail gates USA! I thought secularity was the magical solution to solving income inequality! No way secular nations should be close to the top 10 of 2015....

http://247wallst.com/special-report/...nd-the-poor/2/

Nevertheless the UK ranks relatively high in the Inequality adjusted Human development Index (16th) and Spain ranks above the USA at 22nd.

Regarding incarceration... Yeah I'm not going to comment on that, hardly familiar with why the USA incarcarcerates so many folks.

But your ability to make strong corrolations sucks mate. Maybe you should travel more often, see more of the world if you can afford it.

http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/zuckerman.htm

[Abigail]

http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/zuckerman.htm

I think this article you have linked is begging the question in many respects. The Swedes, Danes etc have their own language so the type of foreigner going to those places will often have 'chosen' to go there and so in a way it is self-selecting as to the suitability of the immigrant. Their immigrant populations are not that high overall and it seems they have already been tightening their asylum rules. It is always easier to get along with people who are basically like ourselves.

[lilpixieofterror]

The only idiots are those who think the Bible is true. And republicans.

So religious hatred and bigotry is all you have. Typical fundy atheist.

[lilpixieofterror]

I mostly agree. I think that when the standard of living and quality of life in a country goes up, religion goes down. That means that by making the world a better place, we can make it less religious and kill two birds with one stone.

More laziness I see. Do tell non-thinker, why is atheist China so violent, if your claim is true? I await your answer.

[lilpixieofterror]

I think this article you have linked is begging the question in many respects. The Swedes, Danes etc have their own language so the type of foreigner going to those places will often have 'chosen' to go there and so in a way it is self-selecting as to the suitability of the immigrant. Their immigrant populations are not that high overall and it seems they have already been tightening their asylum rules. It is always easier to get along with people who are basically like ourselves.

Tazzy Wazzy just hates Christians and will do anything he can to display his hatred, every time he opens his fat mouth. He ignores things like:

Common national identity.
Stable governments.
No major wars.
Economic stability.

Etc as being all reasons that some countries are not as violent as others because he doesn't care. He hates Christians and will find any excuse, no matter how much data he has to ignore, to make his arguments work. Don't prove him wrong too much though, he'll accuse you of having a major psychological illness he can't prove or show you have, in any way (that is, beyond the fact you don't bow before him). It's a Tazzy Wazzy world, we're just fortunate enough to live in it.

[seer]

I think this article you have linked is begging the question in many respects. The Swedes, Danes etc have their own language so the type of foreigner going to those places will often have 'chosen' to go there and so in a way it is self-selecting as to the suitability of the immigrant. Their immigrant populations are not that high overall and it seems they have already been tightening their asylum rules. It is always easier to get along with people who are basically like ourselves.

Never mind that fact that it is largely due to this Christian nation that the Danes, Swedes, Australians, and most of the Western world are not today under some form of totalitarian rule - whether Nazism, Communism, or Japanese imperialism. No thanks required Tass... And it may not remain that way - just look at how ineffectual the faithless, liberal western democracies are in dealing with radical Islam.