Science of Morality

[seer]

We function under the illusion of free will. We're not mindless "biological machines". We're evolved biological creatures that engage in logical reasoning and self-control and make choices to advance our needs. All living creatures do to a greater or lesser degree. The fact that you find the answer repellent does not make it wrong.

OK, so we are mindful biological machines - so what, our thoughts and acts are still just as determined as the orbit of the planets, inevitable and therefore fatalistic.

Fatalism

Fa"tal*ism (?), n. [Cf. F. fatalisme.] The doctrine that all things are subject to fate, or that they take place by inevitable necessity.

http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resourc...ism&use1913=on

[The Thinker]

OK, so we are mindful biological machines - so what, our thoughts and acts are still just as determined as the orbit of the planets, inevitable and therefore fatalistic.

Seer, you might benefit from this info-pic showing the difference between determinism and fatalism:

[seer]

Seer, you might benefit from this info-pic showing the difference between determinism and fatalism.

I just gave an accepted definition

Fatalism

Fa"tal*ism (?), n. [Cf. F. fatalisme.] The doctrine that all things are subject to fate, or that they take place by inevitable necessity.

Are all our acts inevitable or not? Especially in light of Tass' link:

Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws. For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines

We are as determined as as the orbit of the planets and mere biological machines. Therefore all our acts (even whether we decide to call the doctor or not) are determined and inevitable, and fatalistic by definition.

[Tassman]

OK, so we are mindful biological machines - so what, our thoughts and acts are still just as determined as the orbit of the planets, inevitable and therefore fatalistic.

[seer]

No I did not ignore it Tass, I proved that by definition your determinism is fatalistic. I gave an actual definition, Thinker posted propaganda. He made distinctions that make no difference, for if all our thoughts, desires and acts are the result inevitable necessity then again by definition that is fatalism. It is funny how the atheist fights against the idea of fatalism, it is like you guys want to believe that what you do counts for something, that you still have some kind of control over events. That somehow your choices are meaningful. If I didn't know better I would say that the divine spark is peeking through, a bit.

[JimL]

No I did not ignore it Tass, I proved that by definition your determinism is fatalistic. I gave an actual definition, Thinker posted propaganda. He made distinctions that make no difference, for if all our thoughts, desires and acts are the result inevitable necessity then again by definition that is fatalism. It is funny how the atheist fights against the idea of fatalism, it is like you guys want to believe that what you do counts for something, that you still have some kind of control over events. That somehow your choices are meaningful. If I didn't know better I would say that the divine spark is peeking through, a bit.

I'm not sure, the brain is an awfully complicated thing, and whether its choices are determined in the fatalistic sense or not I haven't worked out to my own satisfaction yet. But the world outside the brain is evidentially deterministic and so it is more your charge seer to give evidence or reason to your assertion of free will since the opposition has at least given evidence in contradiction to that assertion.

[Tassman]

No I did not ignore it Tass, I proved that by definition your determinism is fatalistic. I gave an actual definition, Thinker posted propaganda. He made distinctions that make no difference, for if all our thoughts, desires and acts are the result inevitable necessity then again by definition that is fatalism.

It is funny how the atheist fights against the idea of fatalism

No seer, I'll leave it to you theists to ignore evidence you find distasteful.

it is like you guys want to believe that what you do counts for something, that you still have some kind of control over events. That somehow your choices are meaningful. If I didn't know better I would say that the divine spark is peeking through, a bit.

Sigh! They are

I'm not sure, the brain is an awfully complicated thing, and whether its choices are determined in the fatalistic sense or not I haven't worked out to my own satisfaction yet. But the world outside the brain is evidentially deterministic and so it is more your charge seer to give evidence or reason to your assertion of free will since the opposition has at least given evidence in contradiction to that assertion.

...and consequently the brain is equally deterministic, given that it's also part of the physical universe. So yes, it's up to seer to explain how libertarian free will could occur without invalidating the known laws of the universe.

[seer]

I'm not sure, the brain is an awfully complicated thing, and whether its choices are determined in the fatalistic sense or not I haven't worked out to my own satisfaction yet. But the world outside the brain is evidentially deterministic and so it is more your charge seer to give evidence or reason to your assertion of free will since the opposition has at least given evidence in contradiction to that assertion.

Except Jim, quantum mechanics, more and more, is teaching us that the universe is anything but deterministic.

[seer]

Nonsense Tass, you already agree that all we do, think or believe is the result of inevitable necessity. That is the very definition of fatalism, like or not - and obviously for some reason you don't like it. And a rock rolling down a hill and crushing a tree has an impact on the universe, as would a supernova. Your distinction is meaningless bro...

[JimL]

Except Jim, quantum mechanics, more and more, is teaching us that the universe is anything but deterministic.

Where do you get that idea seer? Schrodingers equation is completely deterministic.

[JimL]

...and consequently the brain is equally deterministic, given that it's also part of the physical universe. So yes, it's up to seer to explain how libertarian free will could occur without invalidating the known laws of the universe.

I agree with you about that Tazz, but you also seem to be advocating a sort of free will by denying the fatalistic nature of determinism. Saying that we, unlike the orbiting planets, make choices, and that those choices are meaningful, that they make a difference, does not in itself explain away the fatalistic nature of those choices. It seems to me that if choices are determined, then no matter that they meaningful or that they make a difference, good or bad, they would still, like the orbiting planets, be determined, still be fatalistic. No?

[Tassman]

Nonsense Tass, you already agree that all we do, think or believe is the result of inevitable necessity. That is the very definition of fatalism, like or not

In ultimate terms this is true, but we act under the illusion of 'free will' and consequently our decisions matter within the human time frame ...we've built highly complex societies as a result.

That is the very definition of fatalism, like or not

Nope! 'Fatalism' is just passively sitting back and waiting for things to happen to us.

- and obviously for some reason you don't like it.

What I dislike is your repetitive misuse of terminology in a futile attempt to score points. 'Fatalism' is NOT the same as 'Determinism' despite your best efforts to equate the two.

And a rock rolling down a hill and crushing a tree has an impact on the universe, as would a supernova. Your distinction is meaningless bro...

Except Jim, quantum mechanics, more and more, is teaching us that the universe is anything but deterministic.

[JimL]

I believe that quantum indeterminacy is only definitive of our inability to determine outcomes at the micro level, not that the outcomes themselves are indetermined.

[seer]

Nope! 'Fatalism' is just passively sitting back and waiting for things to happen to us.

Tass are you just being dense or something else? That is not the only definition, fatalism does not simply mean sitting back and waiting, again:

Fatalism

Fa"tal*ism (?), n. [Cf. F. fatalisme.] The doctrine that all things are subject to fate, or that they take place by inevitable necessity.

http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resourc...ism&use1913=on

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/fatalism

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fatalism?rdfrom=Fatalism

Events take place by inevitable necessity, therefore your determinism qualifies as fatalistic by definition.

[Tassman]

Tass are you just being dense or something else? That is not the only definition, fatalism does not simply mean sitting back and waiting, again:



Events take place by inevitable necessity, therefore your determinism qualifies as fatalistic by definition.

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/fatalismhttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fatalism?rdfrom=Fatalism