Science of Morality

[seer]

Come now! You're the one making the claim that 'libertarian free-will' exists so the burden of proof rests with you. You have the sheer effrontery to demand full explanations from others but exempt yourself from supporting your own incoherent faith beliefs. What a travesty.

No Tass, you are missing the point. I don't believe, like you, that science can answer all questions. I believe the soul exists and informs and directs the thought process, but it not something that can be demonstrated by science since it is not a material question. Even Shuny agrees with this.

[shunyadragon]

OK, so you can't support your position - noted... And yes Shuny, it is a Theistic assertion, just like the assertion about the human soul which you also believe exists. So you get to have assertions and I don't?

I do not use my assertions of belief to justify an agenda. I believe in the soul, but I do not use the belief to justify my view of the nature of human will nor the knowledge of science.

[seer]

I do not use my assertions of belief to justify an agenda. I believe in the soul, but I do not use the belief to justify my view of the nature of human will nor the knowledge of science.

Then you are lacking. Since the soul is the most important aspect of the human person. And any theory about the human being that does not take that into account, scientific or otherwise, is missing the a key fact and therefore can never really understand the human condition.

[shunyadragon]

Then you are lacking. Since the soul is the most important aspect of the human person. And any theory about the human being that does not take that into account, scientific or otherwise, is missing the a key fact and therefore can never really understand the human condition.

Your evidence? Still waiting . . .

[seer]

Your evidence? Still waiting . . .

Evidence for what?

[shunyadragon]

Evidence for what?

Evidence that LFW defines our will.

[seer]

Evidence that LFW defines our will.

Where is your evidence that the rational soul is not free?

[shunyadragon]

Where is your evidence that the rational soul is not free?

There is no evidence for the existence of the soul, nor its relationship to the mind.

Where is the evidence that the soul represents the mind, and the mind is free?

[seer]

There is no evidence for the existence of the soul, nor its relationship to the mind.

What do you mean no evidence? No scientific evidence? Why should that matter - it is true anyway - you agree right?

Where is the evidence that the soul represents the mind, and the mind is free?

I didn't claim that. According to your religion the soul is rational and does influence the thinking process. So you can not discount LFW with the soul involved in the process.

Our true identity is our rational soul, whose free will and powers of understanding enable us to continually better ourselves and our society. Walking a path of service to God and to humanity gives life meaning and prepares us for the moment the soul separates from the body and continues on its eternal journey towards its Maker.

[Tassman]

There is no parody involved Tass. The ISIS killers were doing what nature determined them to do, we have no more freedom than an ape (according to you). And the ISIS killers are no more morally responsible than the ape for what he does - that is no parody Tass, that IS your worldview.

really

Where is your evidence that the rational soul is not free?

Where is your evidence that the rational soul even exists? Oh right, you haven't got any.

[seer]

But what is your point? A chimp makes the choice to kill another chimp. Is that chimp morally responsible? Was not the chimp determined by antecedent causes to act that way? Did the chimp have the freedom to act differently - did the chimp have any real control over his actions? I don't care if you call it fatalism or determinism the end is the same - the chimp was determined to kill, just like the ISIS fighters.

Where is your evidence that the rational soul even exists? Oh right, you haven't got any.

Scripture, but I get it Tass, we often lash out at things we don't understand. It must be hard knowing that your life is ultimately meaningless, the insignificant by product of an indifferent universe. Where all you love and hold dear is slated for death.

[Tassman]

But what is your point? A chimp makes the choice to kill another chimp. Is that chimp morally responsible? Was not the chimp determined by antecedent causes to act that way? Did the chimp have the freedom to act differently - did the chimp have any real control over his actions? I don't care if you call it fatalism or determinism the end is the same - the chimp was determined to kill, just like the ISIS fighters.

Scripture, but I get it Tass, we often lash out at things we don't understand. It must be hard knowing that your life is ultimately meaningless, the insignificant by product of an indifferent universe. Where all you love and hold dear is slated for death.

The Bronze Age mythology from which the scriptural world-view is derived is not credible evidence that a rational soul exists. It must be hard to realize that your life is only given meaning by the acceptance of pre-scientific folk tales in lieu of the established facts of scientific knowledge which contradicts it.

[seer]

I mean so what? All the choices are still determined, feedback or not. And no, when male chimps kill the male chimps of another group and take their territory and females they are not punished - they win and thrive. In any case the ISIS killers have no more control over their behavior than the chimps. And are no more morally responsible than the chimps.

[Tassman]

Scripture, but I get it Tass, we often lash out at things we don't understand. It must be hard knowing that your life is ultimately meaningless, the insignificant by product of an indifferent universe. Where all you love and hold dear is slated for death.

So, do you really think that basing your world-view on the Bronze Age mythology from which the scriptures are derived provides true meaning to life and credible evidence for the existence of an immortal soul? It doesn't. You've based your life of folk tales, not factual knowledge, how foolish is that?

[Tassman]

I mean so what? All the choices are still determined, feedback or not. And no, when male chimps kill the male chimps of another group and take their territory and females they are not punished - they win and thrive. In any case the ISIS killers have no more control over their behavior than the chimps. And are no more morally responsible than the chimps.

You mean like Moses did when he slaughtered neighbouring tribes and took over their territory? Or the Christian Europeans when they decimated the Native Americans and took over their territory? Or the Conquistadors in Latin America, or the brutal marginalization of the Australian Aborigines in order to take over their territories? Yes, just like the chimpanzees.

So in what way does the decision-making process and behaviour of chimpanzees differ in principle from that of human primates? Answer, it doesn't. They have the illusion of acting freely just as we do and they maintain order within their tribal communities just as we do.