Science of Morality

[Cow Poke]

A best possible world constitutes itself, whatever its form is, no one person decides its form, because it would be the best possible world regardless of anyones subjective opinion of it. A best possible world is about the moral system that underlies, and if adhered to, sustains it. Such a system, in and of itself, is objective, regardless of whether or not anyone subjectively agrees with its being the best.

Wow. So, where does this "moral system" come from?

[JimL]

Wow. So, where does this "moral system" come from?

It doesn't come from anywhere, its a natural fact. Whatever moral system is in the best interest of the whole of human society, is the moral system that is in the best interests of the whole of human society. You would argue that it comes from god of course, but the fact is that whether it be of supernatural or natural origin is irrelevent, so long as said moral system is in the best interests of the whole of human society.

[Cow Poke]

It doesn't come from anywhere, its a natural fact. Whatever moral system is in the best interest of the whole of human society, is the moral system that is in the best interests of the whole of human society. You would argue that it comes from god of course, but the fact is that whether it be of supernatural or natural origin is irrelevent, so long as said moral system is in the best interests of the whole of human society.

So, this is a totally pretend world you're talking about, eh? For what purpose?

[JimL]

So, this is a totally pretend world you're talking about, eh? For what purpose?

How do you figure? Would your supernatural, or heavenly moral system be pretend, or would it be a moral system that is in the best interests of those who live together there? The purpose is the common good, and so whether it be said to be supernatural or natural in origin makes no difference.

[Cow Poke]

How do you figure? Would your supernatural, or heavenly moral system be pretend, or would it be a moral system that is in the best interests of those who live together there? The purpose is the common good, and so whether it be said to be supernatural or natural in origin makes no difference.

I really don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. Even if you don't allow for a "sinful nature", you can't dispute that man has an inherent nature of self preservation. A "heavenly moral system", as you put it, acknowledges the nature of man, and addresses it.

[JimL]

I really don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. Even if you don't allow for a "sinful nature", you can't dispute that man has an inherent nature of self preservation. A "heavenly moral system", as you put it, acknowledges the nature of man, and addresses it.

A moral system, any moral system, whether natural or supernatural, its perfection in and of itself, has nothing to do with whether men adhere to it or not.

[Cow Poke]

And if no one decides what constitutes a perfect world then how do you know what it is, or how to get there? And Jim, the Communists did in fact believe that their system would fulfill your requirements.

Or, at least, that's how they sold it.

[Cow Poke]

A moral system, any moral system, whether natural or supernatural, its perfection in and of itself, has nothing to do with whether men adhere to it or not.

I'm going to leave you to your folly. You're making no sense whatsoever.

[JimL]

I'm going to leave you to your folly. You're making no sense whatsoever.

Bye.

[Tassman]

If you took the time to watch the video Tass you will hear scientists in the field explain this. I have asked you more than once to do this. And quantum mechanics is the fundamental way the universe operates, undergirds everything, and that is not deterministic. Period, end of story.

But I reject that completely as the best possible world. My best possible world includes the love of God, and that is fundamental. Now what?

Your "best possible world" is an escapist delusion. That's what?

[Tassman]

Wow. So, where does this "moral system" come from?

[seer]

A best possible world constitutes itself, whatever its form is, no one person decides its form, because it would be the best possible world regardless of anyones subjective opinion of it. A best possible world is about the moral system that underlies, and if adhered to, sustains it. Such a system, in and of itself, is objective, regardless of whether or not anyone subjectively agrees with its being the best.

Jim this doesn't make sense. Look as a Christian I believe there is a teleology for man and his behavior. There is a way for man to be, something that man was designed for. And that is to love God and his fellow man. There is no such teleology in a godless universe. Men are at the mercy of biology - which means what makes one man happy or satisfied may not make another man happy and satisfied. Your best possible world is not what all men want. So your best possible world, does not, nor can not, constitutes itself. You can not divorce it from the wants and desires of men because it all depends on men.

[JimL]

Jim this doesn't make sense. Look as a Christian I believe there is a teleology for man and his behavior. There is a way for man to be, something that man was designed for. And that is to love God and his fellow man.

Well of course, you believe whatever you believe, but beliefs that are not based upon sound reasoning, beliefs that are based only upon personal desires, are neither credible or trustworthy. Was the ant designed to love god and his fellow ant? You have no sound reason to believe that you are any different than any other life form in that respect.

There is no such teleology in a godless universe. Men are at the mercy of biology - which means what makes one man happy or satisfied may not make another man happy and satisfied. Your best possible world is not what all men want. So your best possible world, does not, nor can not, constitutes itself. You can not divorce it from the wants and desires of men because it all depends on men.

Not really seer, it is your world that is based on the individual wants and desires of men, the difference being that you attribute that world to god. A best world is attributable to what is in the best interests of the whole of humanity, not the personal wants and desires or should I say dreams of individuals.
Rivers of life giving water, sparkling like crystal, streets paved of gold, trees of of never ending life sustaining fruit, a world where the darkness of night never comes etc etc. Such was the subjective dream world of one such man, which tells us nothing of the moral system dictating the behavior of the people living together there. Apparently we are to assume that, as a recompence for their righteousnesss, all their desires will have been fulfilled, and so they will live forever together in eternal peace and joy. Oops, whence Satan?
But the point is that a best possible world is indeed divorced from the wants and desires of individual men, because it is not about the individual per se, it is about humanity as a whole.

[seer]

Well of course, you believe whatever you believe, but beliefs that are not based upon sound reasoning, beliefs that are based only upon personal desires, are neither credible or trustworthy. Was the ant designed to love god and his fellow ant? You have no sound reason to believe that you are any different than any other life form in that respect.

No Jim, an ant was not designed to love God. Humans can love, as far as I know ants can not.

Not really seer, it is your world that is based on the individual wants and desires of men, the difference being that you attribute that world to god. A best world is attributable to what is in the best interests of the whole of humanity, not the personal wants and desires or should I say dreams of individuals.

Of course it depend on personal wants and desires Jim, that is all you have - personal or collective wants and desires. Look at it this way - say by some miracle most men become at peace with each other - but you have a significant minority that just hate this new world (for what ever reason) - how is it the best possible world for them? It isn't.

Rivers of life giving water, sparkling like crystal, streets paved of gold, trees of of never ending life sustaining fruit, a world where the darkness of night never comes etc etc. Such was the subjective dream world of one such man, which tells us nothing of the moral system dictating the behavior of the people living together there. Apparently we are to assume that, as a recompence for their righteousnesss, all their desires will have been fulfilled, and so they will live forever together in eternal peace and joy. Oops, whence Satan? But the point is that a best possible world is indeed divorced from the wants and desires of individual men, because it is not about the individual per se, it is about humanity as a whole.

But in that world, our future Christian world, all saved men will want that. We will be fulfilling what we are made for. We are fulfilling our teleology. There can be no such objective goal in a godless universe. And those who reject the free offer of salvation, love and joy will be separated from civil society - and we call that hell.

[Tassman]

No Jim, an ant was not designed to love God.

or indeed were designed at all?

Humans can love, as far as I know ants can not.

Of course it depend on personal wants and desires Jim, that is all you have - personal or collective wants and desires. Look at it this way - say by some miracle most men become at peace with each other - but you have a significant minority that just hate this new world (for what ever reason) - how is it the best possible world for them? It isn't.

But in that world, our future Christian world, all saved men will want that. We will be fulfilling what we are made for. We are fulfilling our teleology. There can be no such objective goal in a godless universe.

only

And those who reject the free offer of salvation, love and joy will be separated from civil society - and we call that hell.

"Salvation" from what??? The curse of Original Sin supposedly brought about by Adam?

Come now seer, you can't base your life on mythology.