Is "Why is there something rather than nothing?" a legitimate question?

[JimL]

Really Jim? Where does "place or energy" exist apart from space?

Since there is no such thing as nothing, or nowhere, then the answer would be everywhere.

Is this the magical land of fairies?

No, it's the natural world of non-zero energy and quantum fluctuations out of which universes are born.

And you were wrong, Vilenkin's nothing really is nothing, except for the laws of physics.

For one thing, Vilenkin's universe from nothing theory is not a fact, but if you insist on continuing with this interpretation of yours, then tell us what is this "nothing" that is doing the tunneling, and what is the "nothing" barrier that it is tunneling through?

[seer]

Since there is no such thing as nothing, or nowhere, then the answer would be everywhere.

Really Jim? So physical things don't need space to exist? They are just everywhere? Sounds like God...

No, it's the natural world of non-zero energy and quantum fluctuations out of which universes are born.

Really? Sounds like little fairies that live everywhere without space. Can we go visit them?

For one thing, Vilenkin's universe from nothing theory is not a fact, but if you insist on continuing with this interpretation of yours, then tell us what is this "nothing" that is doing the tunneling, and what is the "nothing" barrier that it is tunneling through?

Jim, Vilenkin's tunneling only takes place after the creation event when time and space are present. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSESZR3wC8s

And his nothing, is really is nothing, except for the laws of physics. According his own words.

[JimL]

Really Jim? So physical things don't need space to exist? They are just everywhere? Sounds like God...

Energy exists and energy is the source of matter, of physical things. The BB is a burst of energy out of which matter is formed.

Really? Sounds like little fairies that live everywhere without space. Can we go visit them?

What do you think "space" is expanding into seer? If you say nothing, then explain what it is that you mean by nothing.

Jim, Vilenkin's tunneling only takes place after the creation event when time and space are present. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSESZR3wC8s

And his nothing, is really is nothing, except for the laws of physics. According his own words.

Wrong seer, I did watch that video, I've seen it before, and at around 4:26 into it Vilenkin specifically says that "Before the universe exists you have a tunneling process."

[seer]

Energy exists and energy is the source of matter, of physical things. The BB is a burst of energy out of which matter is formed.

The question is Jim WHERE does energy exist if it doesn't exist in space?

What do you think "space" is expanding into seer? If you say nothing, then explain what it is that you mean by nothing.

No one knows what space is expanding into or if it expanding into anything.

Wrong seer, I did watch that video, I've seen it before, and at around 4:26 into it Vilenkin specifically says that "Before the universe exists you have a tunneling process."

No he doesn't. You don't understand what he is saying, the quantum tunneling takes place in the vacuum, but he is not starting with the vacuum - he makes that clear from 5 min on. No vacuum, the only thing that is PRIOR to the creation event are the laws of physics - he makes that clear as in my other link.

[carpedm9587]

The question is Jim WHERE does energy exist if it doesn't exist in space?

No one knows what space is expanding into or if it expanding into anything.

No he doesn't. You don't understand what he is saying, the quantum tunneling takes place in the vacuum, but he is not starting with the vacuum - he makes that clear from 5 min on. No vacuum, the only thing that is PRIOR to the creation event are the laws of physics - he makes that clear as in my other link.

The underlined part raised my right eyebrow. I can see how the laws of mathematics and logic are prior to the existent universe - but the laws of physics? These so-called laws as descriptions of how the universe functions. How can they be prior to the universe they describe?

That being said - I have to confess I have not read/watched the linked-to information.

[JimL]

The question is Jim WHERE does energy exist if it doesn't exist in space?




No one knows what space is expanding into or if it expanding into anything.




No he doesn't. You don't understand what he is saying, the quantum tunneling takes place in the vacuum, but he is not starting with the vacuum - he makes that clear from 5 min on. No vacuum, the only thing that is PRIOR to the creation event are the laws of physics - he makes that clear as in my other link.

Seer, I suggest that you go back and watch the video again. Vilenkin clearly states that prior to the universe, i.e before the universe exists, there is a tunneling process which takes place. That tunneling process is what leads to the universe, it doesn't happen after the universe exists, which of course doesn't make a lick of sense anyway.

[seer]

The underlined part raised my right eyebrow. I can see how the laws of mathematics and logic are prior to the existent universe - but the laws of physics? These so-called laws as descriptions of how the universe functions. How can they be prior to the universe they describe?

That being said - I have to confess I have not read/watched the linked-to information.

He thinks they would exist in the "Platonic sense", but he does say that it would be a complete mystery.

[seer]

Seer, I suggest that you go back and watch the video again. Vilenkin clearly states that prior to the universe, i.e before the universe exists, there is a tunneling process which takes place. That tunneling process is what leads to the universe, it doesn't happen after the universe exists, which of course doesn't make a lick of sense anyway.

No he does not Jim, that is exactly what the interviewer asks him, about the vacuum and the bubbling quantum world - Vilenkin stops him and says no, again start at 5min. In any case he does clearly say that the universe comes into being absent of space and time. So where does this stuff exist if not in space Jim?

[JimL]

No he does not Jim, that is exactly what the interviewer asks him, about the vacuum and the bubbling quantum world - Vilenkin stops him and says no, again start at 5min. In any case he does clearly say that the universe comes into being absent of space and time. So where does this stuff exist if not in space Jim?

Pick up the video at 4:10 seer and you will clearly hear Vilenkin say that "If you have a universe of zero size, i.e. no universe at all, then you can have tunneling. Quantum mechanics gets you from no universe to a universe and then that universe expands. And again seer, I think that you are confusing space, which is a physical thing, with place, which need not be physical. Our physical space therefore could be expanding into a non physical place, the same place from out of which it was born.

[carpedm9587]

He thinks they would exist in the "Platonic sense", but he does say that it would be a complete mystery.

Yeah....Plato and I don't see eye to eye on that one. "Forms" I believe he called it...

[seer]

Pick up the video at 4:10 seer and you will clearly hear Vilenkin say that "If you have a universe of zero size, i.e. no universe at all, then you can have tunneling. Quantum mechanics gets you from no universe to a universe and then that universe expands. And again seer, I think that you are confusing space, which is a physical thing, with place, which need not be physical. Our physical space therefore could be expanding into a non physical place, the same place from out of which it was born.

Again Jim, go to 5min, what is doing the tunnelling if there is no prior quantum material as he says? And he also clearly said that the ONLY PRIOR thing necessary are the laws of physics.

Again, that is exactly what he is saying here:

but what is still required here is the laws of physics. So the laws of physics should still be there, and they are definitely not nothing.

The nothing ONLY includes the laws of physics... And you keep speaking of this mysterious something where energy exists that is not in space. Where is that place? How do we find it?

[shunyadragon]

The nothing ONLY includes the laws of physics... And you keep speaking of this mysterious something where energy exists that is not in space. Where is that place? How do we find it?

The Quantum world described by Quantum Mechanics as described by Vilenkin.

[element771]

The Quantum world described by Quantum Mechanics as described by Vilenkin.

Duh. The quantum realm... Have you not seen Ant-Man?

[JimL]

Again Jim, go to 5min, what is doing the tunnelling if there is no prior quantum material as he says? And he also clearly said that the ONLY PRIOR thing necessary are the laws of physics.

Again, that is exactly what he is saying here:

No it isn't exactly what he is saying, but I agree that he doesn't articulate his idea very clearly. And btw, the physical laws can't do anything, nor could any one do anything with them, if nothing exists for them to work on. Common sense!

The nothing ONLY includes the laws of physics... And you keep speaking of this mysterious something where energy exists that is not in space. Where is that place? How do we find it?

Again, physical laws are not physical things, they don't do anything of themselves. That they, the physical laws, should exist in a platonic sense in a supernatural non-physical world would relegate them to uselessness and so the very idea is meaningless. And the place, the place would be everywhere, which is why there is no such thing as nothing.

[seer]

No it isn't exactly what he is saying, but I agree that he doesn't articulate his idea very clearly. And btw, the physical laws can't do anything, nor could any one do anything with them, if nothing exists for them to work on. Common sense!

Of course that is what he says Jim, he is not inarticulate.

Again, physical laws are not physical things, they don't do anything of themselves. That they, the physical laws, should exist in a platonic sense in a supernatural non-physical world would relegate them to uselessness and so the very idea is meaningless. And the place, the place would be everywhere, which is why there is no such thing as nothing.

Jim there is no place that does not include space, there is no evidence of such a place.