Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostEvery discussion thread on TWeb eventually derails into a discussion about something entirely different from the initial topic.
ftw in accordance with Jed's Law
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostEvery discussion thread on TWeb eventually derails into a discussion about something entirely different from the initial topic.
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostappearedAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAre you suggesting that Paul did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ?
So if the gospel writers felt perfectly comfortable putting specific words in Jesus' mouth, how comfortable were they putting day-to-day activities into the story? Did Jesus ever have the encounter in the temple as a youth? Was he actually born in a stable? Did he ride into Jerusalem on a mule to adulation of the crowds? Did he have the conversation with the tax collector? Or are all of these stories passed down over the years, embellished, used to convey ideas about Jesus, and ended up being part of his "history?" Did Jesus tell all of those parables, or were some of them stories the Apostles later told, and then attributed them to Jesus to lend them credence.
And if this is possible, where is the line between the historical "what actually happened" and the things added to the story by the Apostles, early preachers, and the documenters.
The fact is - we simply don't know. We can only assume. We cannot prove these stories are historically accurate - and we cannot prove they are not. We do not have the evidence to do either.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Nonsense, of course Paul believed in the bodily resurrection, and just because Paul saw Christ in a vision does not mean that the Apostles saw Christ in a vision. That doesn't follow. And again it is not merely "tradition" when the principles (the original disciples and Apostles) are still around to inform the early Christian community.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense, of course Paul believed in the bodily resurrection, and just because Paul saw Christ in a vision does not mean that the Apostles saw Christ in a vision. That doesn't follow. And again it is not merely "tradition" when the principles (the original disciples and Apostles) are still around to inform the early Christian community.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense, of course Paul believed in the bodily resurrection, and just because Paul saw Christ in a vision does not mean that the Apostles saw Christ in a vision.That doesn't follow. And again it is not merely "tradition" when the principles (the original disciples and Apostles) are still around to inform the early Christian community.
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Bull Tass, Paul is not saying that all encounters were apparitions. And what did Paul have a vision of? The bodily resurrected Christ? And again, Paul did believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ.
The gospel stories were disseminated via oral tradition over a period of decades before being recorded in writing. Such stories are certain to be embellished, misremembered and inevitably grow with the telling. Especially as much of the Jesus tradition was not passed down by those who had known Jesus personally, but often by peripatetic preachers who had only heard about Jesus from others or, like Paul, who only knew him through visionary experiences.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBull Tass, Paul is not saying that all encounters were apparitions. And what did Paul have a vision of? The bodily resurrected Christ? And again, Paul did believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ.
Again nonsense, how do you know these stories were not passed down by those who knew Jesus especially since they were still alive at the time of these writings (for the most part)? Again we know that Luke used eyewitnesses for his books and both he and Paul were companions of the Apostles. And how do you misremember that your dead friend came back to life?
Just as Tass cannot prove that "these stories were not passed down by those who knew Jesus especially since they were still alive at the time of these writings (for the most part)," you also cannot prove that "these stories were passed down by those who knew Jesus especially since they were still alive at the time of these writings (for the most part)." You cannot even demonstrate that "the witnesses were alive at the time of the writings (for the most part)." You know the authors claimed some of the witnesses were part of the community, but you cannot show that they were the source for the stories (you have to assume it), that they recalled the events of Jesus' life correctly (you have to assume it), or that the documentors accurately captured the stories (you have to assume it). Working against you are the time gap between the events reported and their documentation as well as what we know about how human memory works, all of which you have to wave away in order to preserve your beliefs.
This is what I outlined for you in the discussion you abandoned. The level of detail in the gospels with respect to Jesus specific words and day-to-day activities cannot be defended using normal historical methodology. It is, ASAIK, unprecedented in historical analysis. And the miracles (as you pointed out) cannot be defended with normal historical methodology. It leaves you with major gaps in claiming that the gospels and other NT books are a reliable source for documenting the events of Jesus' life. Ignoring that problem, as you are obviously doing, doesn't make it go away.Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-05-2020, 10:18 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostBull Tass, Paul is not saying that all encounters were apparitions.
Again nonsense, how do you know these stories were not passed down by those who knew Jesus especially since they were still alive at the time of these writings (for the most part)?Again we know that Luke used eyewitnesses for his books and both he and Paul were companions of the Apostles.
And how do you misremember that your dead friend came back to life?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostPaul is clearly saying that all the encounters with Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 were the same as his encounter with Jesus. And we know that this was not a fleshly encounter.
My guess it that Paul does not talk about any traditions that indicated that women went to the tomb and found it empty because he had not heard these tradition. Paul certainly thought, and would have said, if asked, that the tomb was empty, because he definitely thought Jesus was physically raised from the dead. That is his entire argument in 1 Corinthians 15. His Corinthian opponents maintained that the resurrection of believers was a past spiritual event, and they had already experienced it. OBVIOUS and AGREED UPON between himself and the Corinthians.
https://ehrmanblog.org/pauls-view-of...n-for-members/
that. Acts is not considered by scholars to be reliable history. And, given the inconsistencies between Paul's letters and Acts, the letters are considered more reliable for information about Paul than Acts
Pure bias bull. A dead man physically coming back from the dead would have as unusual then as it it is now. And as Erhman makes clear, they, the very people that Paul references (the actual followers of Christ who met him after his resurrection) did not believe these encounters were merely of apparitions.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostPaul says no such thing and Paul makes it clear that the resurrection was not some kind of mere spiritual apparition.A dead man physically coming back from the dead would have as unusual then as it it is now. And as Erhman makes clear, they, the very people that Paul references (the actual followers of Christ who met him after his resurrection) did not believe these encounters were merely of apparitions.
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Again according to Ehrman did Paul and his audience believe in the resurrection of the body, the physical resurrection of Christ? Yes or no?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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