Originally posted by JimL
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostOf course the New Testament has primary sources written by those who knew Christ or from the community populated by those who knew Christ.
You don't know that at all.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere are no primary sources of the Jesus story. No artifacts, no contemporary information and no original documents - merely hearsay accounts dated decades after the death of Jesus and a vision by Paul who, it seems, never met Jesus.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere are no primary sources of the Jesus story. No artifacts, no contemporary information and no original documents - merely hearsay accounts dated decades after the death of Jesus and a vision by Paul who, it seems, never met Jesus.
There is no good reason to think that the notion of gods and the concept of eternal moral laws exist outside of the minds of our species.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere are no primary sources of the Jesus story. No artifacts, no contemporary information and no original documents - merely hearsay accounts dated decades after the death of Jesus and a vision by Paul who, it seems, never met Jesus.
There is no good reason to think that the notion of gods and the concept of eternal moral laws exist outside of the minds of our species.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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There are historical persons, places and things in the New Testament that are shown to be accurate.
There is no such evidence supporting the supposedly miraculous events surrounding the Jesus story - merely interpolated, hearsay accounts dated decades after the death of Jesus.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThere are historical persons, places and things in the New Testament that are shown to be accurate.
Originally posted by seer View PostWhy would there be? Tacitus Pliny and Josephus mention Jesus or early Christians. But 99% of all peoples in those days left no archaeological records.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe existence of historical persons, places, and things in a text is not adequate to support the claim, "therefore everything in the text is historically true," especially when all of the historical things are perfectly aligned with everyday experience and science but the claims being claimed as "true" that do NOT have external verification are not.
There is little reason (IMO) to doubt the Jesus existed, that he developed a cult following, that he died, and that his cult following went on to grow into the early Christian church, hence the existence of external sources citing him. That does not translate into proof that he was divine and the son of a god. There are many examples of people who were the basis for (or founded) a religious group without their claims being true.
Never mind that fact that as obscure as he was he became the single most influential person of human history. Perhaps that is proof that he was divine and the Son of a God.Last edited by seer; 03-30-2020, 08:24 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhy is it not adequate to establish the trustfulness of the writers?
Originally posted by seer View PostGiven the period of time when he existed, and the fact that we was rather obscure with a public ministry of a mere three years what would you expect for proofs?
Originally posted by seer View PostNever mind that fact that as obscure as he was he became the single most influential person of human history.Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-30-2020, 08:26 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBecause anyone can add historically accurate information to a document to lend it credibility. Indeed, if you want to convince people that your story is true, you will imbue it with a large number of "facts" to support your claim. You will place it in a historically accurate and verifiable setting. That has been shown to be a common literary device throughout history.
This is a misleading question: it assumes that proofs of this are possible, and we don't know that to be the case. It is entirely possible the "proofs" are simply not there and not possible. Not every historical event can be "proven."
And that too is a deceptive claim. So what? MANY historical figures have risen from obscurity to become major figures in religion, politics, etc. The fact that he is arguably the most influential does not translate to "so everything said about him in the bible must be true."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIf this is the case then I see no reason to believe that the NT writers were not honest in what they reported. Or that they used historically accurate settings to foist a falsehood.
Originally posted by seer View PostSorry Carp, I can't think of one other person in history who came from such obscurity to such prominence. The single most influential person in human history (for good or ill depending on your belief). Is that "proof?" No, but it should make one wonder.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOf course you don't. Believing the stories are true, which you cannot substantiate, serves a need for you, so you embrace it. It doesn't serve a need for me, so I don't embrace it. I look at the documents and ask myself how this aligns with my experience of reality, science, and other histories. I conclude it aligns with the phenomenon of "religious texts" and not the phenomenon of "historical texts," at least not with respect to the claims made about Jesus of Nazareth.
Again, it makes no difference. It's a red herring. The fact is, many people rise to prominence from obscurity. One of them is naturally going to be "the most prominent" of the set. As you note, rising to prominence from obscurity is irrelevant to "the claims made are true." It doesn't make me wonder if the claims are true in the least. It does make me wonder what factors led to that prominence, and we can easily find those in the nature of the message, basic psychology, and the history of the period and subsequent history of the world. I don't need to resort to "it had to be a god."Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOr you are a sinner who doesn't want a Holy God at the end of the road or defining morality for you.
Originally posted by seer View PostBut my point is, you have offered nothing to make me question the honesty of the NT writers, in general.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd I'm not sure what science has to do with it.
Originally posted by seer View PostLike I said, it should make one wonder, it is completely unique in human history. You can not find anything comparable.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat is the narrative of your religion, so it is understandable that you would see it that way.
Oh I am under no illusion that I am going to successfully offer anything that will make you question the honesty of the NT writers, Seer. That ship has long since sailed. And, frankly, I don't see them as "dishonest." I think it is most likely that they are honestly putting down the beliefs they held which reflect the beliefs of the nascent Christian church. That just doesn't make those beliefs "true."
That much is evident. There is, however, science in most of what we do in life - including history.
I cannot find anything taller than Mount Everest either, Seer. I cannot find anyone taller than "X" or wiser than "Y." There is, for any given category, something or someone at the top. So in the collection of "greatest rise from obscurity to prominence, Jesus is arguably at the top of that heap. Again, it says nothing about the truth of the claims about him, no matter how many times you suggest we should be "wondering." It's a sideshow to the argument - nothing more.Last edited by seer; 03-30-2020, 09:40 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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