Originally posted by JimL
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Philosophy 201 Guidelines
Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell, I don't think that morals have some kind of objective existence as if they exist out there on there own as laws of some sort, I just believe that there are certain human behaviors/actions that are objectively in the best interests of a human society and that their opposites would not be in the best interests of society. Objective existence and objective facts are, I think, two different things.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post"The best interests of a human society" is largely subjective. What you think is in the best interest for society could very well be diametrically opposite to what someone else might think is in the best interest for society. So ultimately you're back to subjective opinion again, the only difference is you've shifted the subjectivity one step further away.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostAnd you could argue that, but unless you had objective values to ground your arguments in it would still ultimately just be your subjective opinion against theirs.
But I think we've gone around this horn more than once, you and I, though I have to admit I have always enjoyed the discussions. You are one of the few people here who keeps your posts about the issues and the argument at hand, without sidetracking to personal insults or accusations of disingenuity (did I just make up a word?).
Nice to see you again.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View Postif there were no sentient beings in the universe to understand the laws of logic that would not bear on the idea of whether the laws of logic are valid or not.
Just as the moral law of God would exist even if we all ignored it.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post[ATTACH=CONFIG]43477[/ATTACH]
It's so far off that I have to wonder is little jimmy trolling or has he plumbed new depths of stupidity.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe laws of logic do not exist in some abstract Platonic universe isolated and self-contained. They exist only insomuch as they are used to analyze an argument or a piece of reasoning, and work out whether it is valid or invalid.
Define evidence without begging the question.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWe've had this discussion before, Jim. The problem is "in the best interests." There is no objective measure for this. It will always be subjective to the person or group making the assessment. "Best interests" or "good" are value judgments. They depend on a valuer to assign them value, which is a subjective exercise..
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostActually, as the great theoretical physicist Wolfgang Pauli put it when he said "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch" ("It is not only not right, it is not even wrong") --or as Asimov's axiom describes it, wronger than wrong.
It's so far off that I have to wonder is little jimmy trolling or has he plumbed new depths of stupidity.
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Originally posted by JimL View Post...but morality has to do with what is in the best interests of a society of individuals...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, we also have reason, seer. Intuition is not foolproof.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBut I don't think that morality has to do with the individual, or what is in the best interest of an individual per se, but morality has to do with what is in the best interests of a society of individuals, so it isn't about any one persons subjective opinion. So it could be argued that subjectively, theft for instance, may subjectively be seen by the individual as being in his best interests, but wouldn't you agree that objectively it isn't in the best interest of both parties, or in other words, in the best interests of society as a whole?
And you are still stuck with "best interests." There is no way to objectively measure this. What is "best" to one, is not best to another. Yes, there are things most of us tend to agree on, but that doesn't make it objective - it simply makes it widely held. Most of us value our lives, so moral guidelines prohibiting the wanton taking of life are common to virtually all societies. But they are rooted in the subjective valuing of life, making the principles themselves subjective.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut Jim that is your subjective opinion, or what constitutes what is actually best for society is opinion. Your opinion would be much different than of the Stalinist.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostJim - you cannot escape the reality that individuals moralize. I look at a situation and assess its morality. I am not bound by what my neighbor thinks. Indeed, if my neighbor thinks differently, I will likely assess them as immoral.
Moralizing is a cognitive activity, and cognitive activities are inherently individual.
They can be influenced by groups (among other things), but the morality of a society is nothing more or less than the collective moralizing of its constituent individuals.
As more and more individuals begin to see "X" as moral, the society begins to adopt X as part of its moral character. There is a feedback loop there, but it does not start with the society - it starts with the individuals that make up that society. We see this demonstrated when we see a moral position originally held by only a few become the dominant moral position of a society.
And you are still stuck with "best interests." There is no way to objectively measure this. What is "best" to one, is not best to another. Yes, there are things most of us tend to agree on, but that doesn't make it objective - it simply makes it widely held. Most of us value our lives, so moral guidelines prohibiting the wanton taking of life are common to virtually all societies. But they are rooted in the subjective valuing of life, making the principles themselves subjective.
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