Originally posted by seer
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Can Atheism Account For Rationality
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Originally posted by seer View PostExcept if there were no minds then conceptual logical truths would not exist. So our minds can not be the source or ground of logical truths.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYes, many computer programs do nothing more than act on their initial instructions. But now we have computers augmenting their own programming, and creating outputs essentially impossible to envision by the programmers. And we have systems that can learn and adjust to changing parameters. Are they self aware? I sincerely doubt it. The most complex computer today has a fraction of the neural capacity of the human brain. But that boundary is coming ever closer as more and more of the characteristics of sentience begin to be exhibited.
We see the same thing in the animal and even plant kingdoms. We have long though of sentience as some kind of binary condition: humans have it - other animals don't. Now we know that sentience is more a continuum than a "switch." The more complex the organism, the more characteristics of sentience manifest. It's why many scientists describe sentience as an "emergent property."Last edited by seer; 06-22-2019, 05:18 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThat is so circular it bites you in the butt.Last edited by seer; 06-22-2019, 05:27 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post...the law of excluded middle for instance says that statements are either true or false, but it takes a mind to make that distinction...Last edited by little_monkey; 06-22-2019, 08:01 AM.
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Originally posted by seer View PostAgain Carp, a computer does not choose the right answer BECAUSE it is right, but because it was programmed so, no matter how complex. It was determined to do so, and if programmed incorrectly it would have chosen incorrectly.
Originally posted by seer View PostThe computer does not care or seek the right answer it does what it has been programmed to do. If it was programmed for wrong answers, that is what it will give.
I am mostly being facetious. As I said, I don't think computers are anywhere near the level of being conscious, and right now they are essentially highly complex, (mostly) deterministic machines. But there are several new developments to watch. The first is quantum computing and the potential for such a system to provide for the complexity many think is required for consciousness. The second is work towards the development of a differential neural computer. And finally, the emergence of the field of Artificial Consciousness (AC), an almost predictable outgrowth of Artificial Intelligence (AI). Will we someday be able to engineer (create) a computer that has actual sentience? Personally, I think that is inevitable.
Then the question becomes, what lies on the other side of THAT singularity. There are some that fear it will be the end of the human race as we know it - the Judgement Day scenario. I have no opinion on it, and I probably won't be here to see it. But it is an interesting field.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostConceptual logical truths only exist in minds. Unless you have something else?
You have not shown that mind creates the reality upon which the articulated formula is based, which is what you need to show for your argument to have any relevance. Otherwise, like mathematical concepts, the mind simply recognizes/grasps the reality in which it exists. Nothing more. You are putting a lot of eggs in this basket, Seer, and it has a lot of holes.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by little_monkey View Post"This sentence is false." True or false???The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by little_monkey View Post"This sentence is false." True or false???Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt is nonsense.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI don't think I ever made a claim about "why" the computer makes a choice - simply that it is, in fact, choosing between a right answer and a wrong answer, on the basis of parameters that have been defined and input that provides the circumstance. So if the program says "if the temperature drops below X, turn on the heat." The computer then monitors the ambient temperature, and acts when the conditions have been met. Likewise, a child who has been told, "when the TV program is over, go to bed," follows their instructions. Of course, the difference is that the child IS self-aware and can bring other factors into play and "disobey" the command. The computer (so far) is not, AFAIK. Our most complex systems can produce unpredictable results, but (as I noted) have not achieved even rudimentary sentience.
Amazing how humanity follows a similar pattern. A child raised in a home that has had all of what we would call "bad" influences will most often grow up to make "bad choices." Interesting. It's almost as if they've been programmed wrong.
I am mostly being facetious. As I said, I don't think computers are anywhere near the level of being conscious, and right now they are essentially highly complex, (mostly) deterministic machines. But there are several new developments to watch. The first is quantum computing and the potential for such a system to provide for the complexity many think is required for consciousness. The second is work towards the development of a differential neural computer. And finally, the emergence of the field of Artificial Consciousness (AC), an almost predictable outgrowth of Artificial Intelligence (AI). Will we someday be able to engineer (create) a computer that has actual sentience? Personally, I think that is inevitable.
Then the question becomes, what lies on the other side of THAT singularity. There are some that fear it will be the end of the human race as we know it - the Judgement Day scenario. I have no opinion on it, and I probably won't be here to see it. But it is an interesting field.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostInterestingly, it's not. It's a contradiction.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAgain Carp, the point is if materialism is true you are determined to make the choices you do because of antecedent conditions, not because of the rationality involved. There is nothing to break the chain of cause and effect.
Bottom line is - we don't know. I experience free will and self-determination. For now, I'll go with that. If it turns out its all an illusion and my consciousness is simply "along for the ride" and "programmed to experience the illusion of free will," while every choice/step is actually predetermined, then I guess that's the reality and I'll have to live with it. I've never been much for creating illusions to mask realities I don't like. Meanwhile, until that is shown to be true, I'll go downstairs, freely pick out a specific brew, and enjoy my morning Jo.Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-22-2019, 09:00 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostSome how I don't think it is that simple...
Unfortunately, a contradiction doesn't do that. It's not both true and false at the same time. It simply can have no truth value assigned at all because it is a linguistic contradiction. Assigning it the value "true" makes it false. Assigning it the value "false" makes it true.
A variation on "Everything I say is a lie."The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat's basically the point. No free will involved - yet it can distinguish between "correct" and "incorrect." That doesn't seem to fit your definition.
You're equivocating on "distinguish", as you and seer have already arrived to in the meanwhile. It's not choosing, it's carrying out commands.
Well, at least the impression/illusion of free will exists. Personally, I think I have a free ability to choose form the possible. But I have no clue how it arises anymore than I can explain how consciousness arises. These are mysteries we have not yet penetrated. Hopefully we will someday.
As I said, I'm not very interested in Apologetics anymore. Most of these things have been hashed and rehashed to death.
In this very thread you've been accused of "hashing and rehashing" certain subjects with seer "to death." Be honest. I scare you. You're not the first and you won't be the last. I'm too real and too smart for most liars and fakes to handle. The proper response is not to run, though, but to repent.
That was a fast assessment...
I don't like to waste time.
OK, Darf. Nice chatting with you.Last edited by Darfius; 06-22-2019, 10:07 AM.
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