I think it can be demonstrated with rational certainty that God exists, and exists in a way worthy of being called "supernatural", that is not subsisting inside the natural world.
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Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Can Atheism Account For Rationality
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight Tass, there is evidence for the material world, but why call it natural? You can't with out begging the question. You are working on a computer - would you call that computer "natural?" Doubtful. To call this universe natural you would have to assume that natural forces created it and uphold it. But there is no evidence to support that claim. And if this universe really is a simulation they we can not call it natural any more than you would call your computer natural.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI think it can be demonstrated with rational certainty that God exists, and exists in a way worthy of being called "supernatural", that is not subsisting inside the natural world.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI think it can be demonstrated with rational certainty that God exists, and exists in a way worthy of being called "supernatural", that is not subsisting inside the natural world.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWe call it natural seer, because if there were another existence which created it, it would be that existence which we would call supernatural. We coin the terms seer, they mean what we say they mean. Supernatural simply denotes "other than" this world, this world which we call the natural world.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight Tass, there is evidence for the material world, but why call it natural? You can't with out begging the question. You are working on a computer - would you call that computer "natural?" Doubtful.To call this universe natural you would have to assume that natural forces created it and uphold it.
But there is no evidence to support that claim. And if this universe really is a simulation they we can not call it natural any more than you would call your computer natural.
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Well.. if the definition of "natural" is "can be investigated by science." Another definition is "not made by human hands," and your computer would not qualify for that one. Again, context is everything.
Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe same cannot be said regarding the hypothesis of a supernatural world. Or are you the proud owner of a supernatural computer?
We can reasonably assume this universe exists; we are part of it and we know we exist. How it originated is a matter of scientific investigation not nonscientific, unverifiable speculation about supernatural origins.
Of course we "can call it natural", what else would it be? ALL technology, including the advanced technology of a simulated universe, is grounded in the Laws of Nature as understood by science.
The whole thing is rather odd...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell.. if the definition of "natural" is "can be investigated by science." Another definition is "not made by human hands," and your computer would not qualify for that one.
I think Seer is leaping to the conclusion that calling the universe "natural" implies it arose from "natural causes." He's misapplying the definition and, presumably because the results conflict with his worldview, objecting.In the process, his objection has him complaining about the nature of language itself
The whole thing is rather odd...
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Of course you are begging the question. Why call a material universe that can be studied natural? That is no more and an arbitrary assertion. And I certainly would call my computer, at least, extra natural. In that the non-rational forces of nature could not create a computer under its own steam. It take intelligence.
We can reasonably assume this universe exists; we are part of it and we know we exist. How it originated is a matter of scientific investigation not nonscientific, unverifiable speculation about supernatural origins.
Of course we "can call it natural", what else would it be? ALL technology, including the advanced technology of a simulated universe, is grounded in the Laws of Nature as understood by science.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOf course you are begging the question. Why call a material universe that can be studied natural? That is no more and an arbitrary assertion. And I certainly would call my computer, at least, extra natural. In that the non-rational forces of nature could not create a computer under its own steam. It take intelligence.
Again you have zero evidence that previous natural forces created this universe or could.
Why call the laws of nature "natural." What is natural about them?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSheesh, seer, again, we call this world natural because that is what we decided to call it. If there is another kind of existence then that is what we would refer to as supernatural. This world doesn't become supernatural just because there might be something about it beyond our ability to observe. We get it, you have an agenda, but this debate isn't helpful to it.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou call it natural without rational justification. It is a mere assertion.
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NvmThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe supernatural is anything that may exist that can't be defined by the laws of nature. The key word there is nature. The possible existence of the supernatural means beyond nature, distinct from nature.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is my point Jim, these are arbitrary definitions. Let me ask you - if this universe was created by God in what sense could you call it natural? What would be natural about it?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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